The Future of Animal Free Meat
Catch up on this fascinating conversation about the future of (animal free) meat with two Science Alumni: Vow Chief Scientific Officer James G. Ryall and Director of Cellular Agriculture Australia Bianca Le.
Audience Questions
Environmental impact
Q: The recent UN reports on the loss of biodiversity, preventing the next pandemic and climate change all said that the demand for animal agriculture is a major driver in all these issues. Can we really afford to wait for lab grown meat to meet the demands of 7.5 billion people affordably? Or are our efforts better spent prioritising the planet and our health over our taste buds by moving away from meat altogether?
JGR: If I have learnt one thing from 20 years in biomedical research, it’s that behavioural change is limited in its effectiveness. Exercise is good for us, junk food is bad for us – and yet inactivity and poor diet are common. Cultivated meat will form a key part in helping the world meet the growing demand for protein. I encourage anyone who feels strongly about these issues to get involved with the cellular agriculture field.
Q: A big criticism of plant-based meat products is large emissions generation. Are there any significant environmental impacts of lab grown meat?
JGR: This is an important question, but we should also call out that modern animal agricultural is associated with significant emissions. Once we start to see the first large-scale cultivated meat plants, we will have a much better understanding of the associated environmental impacts. Based on the information available to date, cultivated meat has been proposed to be linked to significant reduction in emissions.
Q: What is the Life Cycle Analysis of this product? If you use industrial energy to power the culturing of the cells - what source of energy is being used to power this system?
JGR: This is a great question. Several studies have sought to measure and report on the environmental benefit of producing cultivated meat instead of animal agriculture, but every study to date includes several assumptions about power consumption and origin. Until cultivated meat is approved for sale and is produced on a large scale, I don’t think we’ll be able to answer this question clearly.
Product and taste
Q: What species are leading competitors in the space?
JGR: There are quite a range of species currently being investigated. I can tell you that Vow currently has seven species in our cell bank, including pig and kangaroo. I can also say that Memphis Meats has produced duck, chicken and beef, Shiok Meats has produced prawn, Mission Barns has produced bacon with pig fat cells from.
Singapore based Shiok meats and US based Blue Nalu are both focussed on producing cell-based seafood.
I haven’t heard of any company focussing on producing eggs, but the alternative protein company JUST has produced an animal free scramble egg mix which is currently available in the US.
Q: Would the lab cultured meat taste as good as real meat?
JGR: I think we want to avoid thinking about it as a simple “will it taste as good as animal-based meat?” question. I can’t speak for all cultivated meat companies, but I can say that we here at Vow are trying to produce a product that will taste better than any animal-based meat you’ve ever eaten. Charles Darwin once said that Galapagos turtle was the best tasting animal he had ever tried. We now have the technology to isolate cells from any animal in the world, so this opens up a whole new world of flavours!
Q: Is it possible for cultivated meat to reflect different muscle parts of an animal? Burgers are made from generic minces/trims so I imagine they're easier to imitate. What about prime cuts? Can we expect food with a bit more physical structure e.g. a lamb shank on the bone, or chicken wings?
JGR: This assumes that we are trying to mimic meat from the animal. While creating a fully integrated T-bone steak (with bone, fat, connective tissue and muscle) is incredibly challenging – is this ultimately something we need/want to do? What if we could create a kangaroo steak laced with veins of duck fat? Or a zebra brisket? I think we are going to see a huge explosion in the type of meats we eat.
I don’t think we’ll ever see consumer cultivated meats on the bone. Culturing and producing bone is an added cost, with no clear benefit besides the visual appeal. I definitely think we’ll see meat with a 3D structure, but as I alluded to above, it may not be a direct replica of animal based meats.
Q: Could the specific animals the original samples were taken from significantly impact the taste of each product? How do you know there wasn't a tastier kangaroo 5km away when you were collecting them?
JGR: I love this question! We are standing on the precipice of a whole new world of taste. We are going to be able to link genomics to flavour in ways people have never imagined. Using cultivated meat we are going to be able to answer this question on a cell type specific manner.
Q: Will cultivated meat have standard meat structure and be able to withstand all cooking types?
JGR: This question assumes that we are just trying to mimic traditional meat, and that is not necessarily what we are doing. Ultimately, I would say yes. The product/s that Vow produces will be able to be cooked in a whole range of different manners. Some of our products may look similar to animal-based cuts of meat, and some will look completely new.
Q: Could it be used for global emergency response food bars?
JGR: Eventually, yes. For the moment the price point is too high. But in the future, absolutely. Cultivated meat is also being thought about as a potential protein source for extended space travel.
Q: What could be the disadvantages of consuming cultivated meat? is there any?
JGR: The only disadvantage in my mind is that the first products coming to our shelves will be mince meat style products, so you won’t be seeing a fat, juicy cultivated steak next year. But this is a short-term problem, we will rapidly see larger 3D cuts of meat appear on shelves.
Cultivated meat has so many benefits over traditional meat. We control the cell types that go in, we control the nutritional environment that the cells grow in, we don’t need to use antibiotics to grow our cells, and ethically we can feel better about eating cultivated meat.
Q: Where would I go to try some free samples of the cultivated meat? I would love to put some in my Bun Bo Hue!
JGR: For the moment cultivated meat is not approved for sale or consumption in Australia – but stay tuned!
Health and safety
Q: Have any clinical trials been conducted to rule out any side effect of the lab cultured meat on human health?
JGR: Cultivated meat will undergo rigorous testing and need to meet minimum standards before it is approved for consumption in Australia. Given that we have complete control over all nutrients that go in, and we also have the tools necessary to measure all proteins and metabolites produced, we can be very confident on our product being safe for human consumption. Each of these steps will play an important role in the regulatory approval.
Q: How do we know that cultivated meat won't have any unintended consequences on health (eg. transfats)? Is the bioavailability of nutrients similar to real meat?
JGR: One of the great things about cultivated meat is that we have precise control over the nutrients used to feed the cells. We can culture our cells in a wide range of different ingredients to achieve different nutritional profiles. We can also measure the protein and metabolite signature of our cells at every stage along the process of producing the final cultivated meat product. In the same way you can buy 4%, 2% and 1% milk in the US, I see a future where you will be able to specify the % fat you want in your mince (or the % fat in you steak).
Q: Does the artificial meat also contain important nutrients like iron which are not sourced from muscle?
JGR: Let me start by saying this is not artificial meat. Cultivated meat is produced with the same cells that make up animal-based meat, just without the need to kill the animal. Given the level of control we have over the growth environment, we can supplement our cells with a whole range of different nutrients. I would argue that cultivated meat has the potential to be more nutritious than animal based meats, and can be tailored to specific nutritional needs.
Q: You mentioned the absence of regulatory approval in the space so far; does this also mean that the actual regulatory agencies (e.g. FSANZ in Australia) have not released any requirements or speculations at all in this case?
JGR: Regulations are well outside my scientific purview. But one of the biggest impediments is just how new this product is. Being able to define how the cells are treated from animal to plate will be critical.
But I can say that cultivated meat is on the radar of FSANZ and there are several groups in regular discussions with them.
Q: The FDA/USDA has announced their plans for regulating these products. What is you view of these plans?
JGR: I’m (tentatively) excited about a path to consumers. But I’ll hold back on celebrations for now.
The industry
Q: Who is supporting the cost of those costly projects? Government or private companies? When do you think most probably it will be available in the market?
JGR: For the moment, the vast majority of funding is coming from private investment. But, cultivated meat companies are standing on the shoulder of giants, and are making use of over 60 years of publicly funded research on skeletal muscle, stem cells and regenerative medicine. Assuming that the US approves the sale and consumption of cultivated meat, I expect we’ll see products hit shelves in late 2021.
Q: What are the main technological or scientific drivers of cost reduction over the past 6 years, getting us from $450k for 142g to Vow’s (inexpensive) Roo-Dumpling?
JGR: In a report commissioned by The Good Food Institute in February 2019, Dr Liz Spect calculated that over 99% of the cell culture media cost could be attributed to just two growth factors. As the excitement around cultivated meat has increased, so has the number of companies looking to support this nascent industry. Over the last 18 months we have seen a dramatic drop in the cost of these (and other) growth factors. This has probably had one of the biggest impacts on the cost of cultivated meat.
Q: When do you estimate that cultivated meat will be ready in our supermarkets?
JGR: At this stage it’s tough to know. It all comes down to when regulatory approval is put in place. My guess is that we will start to see hybrid (cell + plant based) products in the US in 2021.
Q: What would you say is the biggest challenge facing the cultivated meat industries at this point in time?
JGR: There are certainly a lot! Obviously getting regulatory approval is a big one, but I would say the biggest challenge at the moment is bringing down the cost without negatively impacting flavour.
Q: Do you anticipate resistance from traditional ag companies/ models?
This is a great question! I am sure that there will be some who are nervous about the long-term implications of cultivated meat. But to be honest, that rapid increase in meat consumption means that demand is fast outstripping supply. Cultivated meat is unlikely to be a direct competitor for animal based agriculture anytime soon. Additionally, we may see a model where animal based meat becomes a boutique product, sold at a higher price point.
Q: Does VOW plan on expanding to Melbourne?
JGR: No immediate plans at this stage, but Vow’s mission is to feed billions of people every day. So, at some point, absolutely!
Technical aspects
Q: How will you be approaching the issue of perfusion in such large 3D cultures?
JGR: This is an excellent question. Currently, most companies are focussed on producing a mincemeat-style product, which nicely avoids the need to support perfusion. As we move more and more into larger 3D structures, this will become a critical point to address. Here at Vow we have several ideas that we are looking at to overcome this problem.
Q: Besides MuSCs, how do you target and improve the flavour of cultivated meat?
JGR: The flavour of the final product is dictated by the cell type (muscle, fat, connective tissue etc) and the media that the cell was cultured in. By culturing cells from different species, we have an incredible opportunity to mix and match flavours in an entirely new manner.
Q: Could you please elaborate on what type of changes are made to the cellular environment after the initial myocyte replication to encourage differentiation of the individual cell in to the myotube?
JGR: In biomedical research we traditionally culture muscle stem cells in media containing a very high (10-20%) concentration of fetal bovine serum (FBS). The FBS contains all of the growth factors necessary to support rapid cell proliferation. When we want the cells to undergo differentiation and begin the processes of fusion and maturation, we would typically remove the high serum media and replace with a low serum (2%) media. In our pipeline, we do something similar, but without the use of serum.
Q: Do you think you can replace the need for cell growth factors for growing these cells?
JGR: Without extensive genetic modification, cells will always require external stimuli to support cell division and to decide when to change state (during differentiation, fusion and maturation) and growth factors play a critical role in these processes. The good news is that we have come a really long way in terms of being able to generate recombinant growth factors which are not animal based.
Q: Do you 3D print the cells in the structure you want (e.g. burger) or do you use another technique?
JGR: Vow doesn’t currently use 3D printing of cells, but a great example of how this could be used is the bacon produced by Mission Barns.
Q: Could you describe some more about the science producing growth factors? Are they also able to be produced in-vitro, or is the technology currently at a level where we are only shifting cell proliferation and tissue engineering out of the animal, but the growth factors still need to be farmed by live animals?
JGR: I should be really clear here. All of our growth factors are recombinant (i.e. not animal derived). The economics and ethics don’t make sense if we are using animal products in our media formulation. Over the last 2-3 years we have seen an explosion in the number of cultivated meat related companies, including companies focussed on producing growth factors on a large scale. This interest in growth factors has resulted in a dramatic decrease in their cost.
Q: Are fat cells less susceptible to hypoxia than muscle cells?
JGR: It depends on the type of fat cells. Brown fat are very metabolically active, have an extensive network of mitochondria and require ready access to oxygen. White fat is still metabolically active, and also requires ready access to oxygen.
Q: What is the best way to observe muscle structure through microscopy? Are there any limits and do you use any clearing techniques?
JGR: Visualizing the macrostructure of the muscle can be done very easily using standard immunofluorescence techniques. The antibodies for all of the major structures are readily available and (in most cases) are excellent.
Q: How do you grow in a serum free media?
JGR: This is such an important question. For any cultivated meat company, going serum free is critical to being commercially (and ethically!) viable. The way this is achieved is by using a mix of basal ingredients (simple sugars and amino acids) and then adding recombinant growth factors.
Q: You mentioned a couple times that the industry is maybe underestimating the difficulty associated with muscle fibre maturation. Do you have specific areas you’d like to see academic researchers should focus on to address these challenges?
JGR: Academia have already started answering some of these questions. There is some beautiful work looking at how electrical and physical stimulation can be applied to induce muscle maturation. A/Prof James Hudson in QLD has done some wonderful work looking at environmental regulators of muscle maturation. Personally, I love the basic science focus of academic research. Shifting entirely to applied research would be a huge loss for Australia.
Q: Early sci-fi writers used to talk about vats using yeasts. Is there still a role for yeasts?
JGR: Absolutely! There is some really interesting work being done in Japan. if you haven’t already come across the Shojin Meat project then definitely look it up. It is a self-described citizen science project for developing open source clean meat. It’s very cool.
Careers
Q: I’m interested in how current students can get cell-ag research going at their own universities. Thinking back to when you were a supervisor at Melbourne Uni not involved in this field, what advice would you give to students who are wanting to bring this up with their own supervisors?
JGR: It’s an interesting question. Given there are so many unanswered questions in the field of cellular agriculture, my suggestion is to find a question that excites you AND is relevant to your supervisor (the funds to support your research have to come from somewhere!). For example, if your lab is cell-therapy focussed, then you need a process to efficiently grow a lot of cells (a problem that all cultivated companies need to tackle). Think creatively about the problems cellular agriculture are trying to solve, and think about how you can apply your skills.
Q: What advice would you give to HDR students who are interested in pursuing a potential career in cultivated meat?
JGR: The best advice I can give is to get involved early. Learn as much as you can about cellular agriculture as an industry, don’t just focus on cultivated meat. Follow companies on Twitter and LinkedIn and volunteer your time to NFP organizations.
Q: Is there a role for software engineers in this industry?
JGR: Funny you should ask. If you jump onto our website (vowfood.com) you’ll see that we are currently advertising for software engineers.