Episode 100 - Twenty questions with Jen and Michael

Transcript

Jen (00:00:20)

Hello everybody, and welcome to a very, very special episode of Let's Talk SciComm.
I'm Jen Martin, and I'm here to say that we have hit episode 100, whoo!

Michael (00:00:31)

Whoo, whoo-hoo!

Jen (00:00:34)

And as you've just heard, as always, I'm joined by my exceptionally good friend and colleague and podcast co-conspirator, Dr. Michael Wheeler.

G'day, Michael.

Michael (00:00:45)

G'day, Jen.

Jen (00:00:47)

Yes.

Michael (00:00:47)

Do you reckon by 100 episodes, my g'day has been perfected yet?

Jen (00:00:50)

I think your g'day is really really excellent. I'm incredibly impressed.

I just can't believe we've done 100 of these. It feels like, on the one hand, still this kind of new project that we hatched during COVID and sort of thought, Oh, wouldn't it be fun to make a podcast together?But by the same token also, it just feels like such a regular part of my day-to-day life. I couldn't imagine life without podcasting with you, Michael.

Michael (00:01:13)

Yeah, it's such a regular occurrence. And I think the fact that we've done 100 episodes is just really testament to how much fun we actually have when we're doing it.

And I guess a bit selfishly as well, you know, we get to learn lots from everyone that we interview. You know, we're able to tell people in the workshops that we run, "by the way, we've got an episode on that very topic". So it's valuable for them.

But it's also valuable for us. I feel like I've learned a huge amount over the last three years, and I'm a better listener, I think.

Jen (00:01:45)

Definitely.

Michael (00:01:45)

So it's been a really great experience, yeah. I can't believe we've done three years.

Jen (00:01:49)

It's very exciting. And I feel proud of us, Michael.

I think, you know, having stuck at this for three years amidst all sorts of other things going on in our lives, and the fact that we still get excited about doing it, and the fact that we have people who listen and give us feedback. You know, I think all of that is pretty special and something to celebrate.

Michael (00:02:09)

So speaking of celebrations, how are we going to celebrate our 100th episode, Jen?

Jen (00:02:14)

So the plan is Michael, we are going to do the Let's Talk SciComm version of 20 questions. Essentially, I thought we'd put ourselves in the spotlight for a bit rather than a guest.

So I've gone through and pulled out all the rapid fire questions that we've posed to guests over the last three years, and I've added in a few of my own questions for good measure.

The challenge for us Michael... And neither you nor I are necessarily very good at this. We are, you know, we love talking. That's why we co-host a podcast. The challenge is that we need to be concise.

So just like this year, we challenged ourselves to start a new stream of the podcast, Listen to This If. If you haven't listened yet, those episodes are only five minutes, and it's Michael and I giving you our top advice on just one science communication challenge you might be tackling.

So Michael, the challenge is on. There's 20 questions. We are both going to answer each question. And we have to try and stick to, you know, a couple of sentences each.

You and I love to waffle and talk for hours. Let's see, let's see if we can do this. What do you think?

Michael (00:03:18)

I think we can do it. Let's go.

Jen (00:03:20)

All right, first question is for you, Michael. What did you want to be when you grew up?

Michael (00:03:25)

Musician/DJ, someone who just gets to go to parties all the time and make people dance.

Jen (00:03:32)

Well now you just get to not go to parties, but hold a microphone and tell people cool stuff.
You've achieved it, come on!

Michael (00:03:41)

Yeah, I guess so, I guess so. I'm still working on my dance moves. I'm not ready yet for the limelight.

What about you, Jen?

Jen (00:03:48)

Oh, mine's a bit more boring, and I think it's common to quite a few of the people we've actually interviewed on the podcast.

I always wanted to be a vet just because I really loved animals. But then I did work experience in year nine at a vet and soon discovered that I didn't want to be a vet at all. So it's good that I, you know, knocked that one on the head quite early.

Michael (00:04:06)

Yeah, yeah, good to know which roads not to explore.

Jen (00:04:11)

Exactly. Okay Michael, so the next question is similar, but it is a little bit different. And that is that if you had to pick an alternative career to what you're doing now, what would you be doing?

Michael (00:04:21)

Okay, I think it's going to involve food, it's going to involve travel.

You know, I'd love to be like Anthony Bourdain and you know, travel around to different exotic locations and trying the local food, chatting with people.

I mean, I feel like I've been a bit risky with some of the foods that I've tried, fermented herring when I was in Sweden.

Jen (00:04:42)

Mm, delicious.

Michael (00:04:43)

So you know, I'm ready to just expand my variety of different foods. So I want to try it all.

Jen (00:04:51)

That's the perfect answer for you, Michael.

Michael (00:04:53)

What about you, Jen? What's your alternative career?

Jen (00:04:56)

Well, I've got two that I can't pick between. One would just be getting paid to ask people questions, 'cause you know how much I love connecting with people and getting to know them. So I think I just want to host my own radio or TV chat show. Just you know, get into the nitty gritty with people.

But the other is I just would have loved to have been born in a body where I could get paid to run. You know, I know elite runners work incredibly hard. I'm not saying it would be an easy life, but I just love running. I love running a long way.

The thought of having a body that would allow me to do that fast enough, that someone would pay me to train and go to the gym and sleep and eat. That, you know, that would be a pretty good life, I think.

Michael (00:05:32)

Oh, I think so. And I can imagine it, Jen.

You know, just to remind our listeners, you are an endurance athlete. You know, you've done the Oxfam Trailwalker twice. You've done the Larapinta Trail. You do a lot of events.

So you're just kind of missing out on perhaps having a personal coach and you know, getting paid. But yeah, I can see it for you.

Jen (00:05:52)

And the body that would allow me to be fast enough that I could actually be anything but a very very middle of the pack amateur runner.

Oh dear. All right Michael, next question. What is your proudest professional moment?

Michael (00:06:08)

I'd say graduating from my PhD.

My parents came out to Perth. You know, it was a hot, you know, 40 degree day and I had the cape on. But you know, I wouldn't want to wear anything else on that day.

I thought it would never come and eventually you know, it did. And it was a great celebration.

Jen (00:06:26)

Yeah, that's special.

Michael (00:06:28)

What about you, Jen? What's your proudest?

Jen (00:06:31)

This one's hard 'cause I think there are visible moments and less visible moments.

I think for me I'd have to say, it's every time I receive an email from a former student who has taken the time to get in touch and just say, "Hey Jen, just wanted to let you know something happened this week that reminded me of what you taught me and it was really helpful." You know, whether it's I had a job interview or they had to give a talk. So you know, these are students who might've studied with me nearly 15 years ago. The fact that they bothered to get in touch and say thank you and reconnect.

I just feel that's huge. And it just feels like all the years of hard work kind of establishing our teaching program at UniMelb, to know that there are people out there who studied a long time ago and are still finding what I've taught them or what we've taught them useful. I feel really proud of that.

Michael (00:07:17)

Oh, it's definitely something to be really proud of. How many times do students just I guess, forget about their uni years?

So you know, to be able to be imprinted in their memory, I think is a really good sign and a compliment to your great teaching and mentorship.

Jen (00:07:36)

Yeah, thanks. Thanks Michael. I do feel proud.

Our next question, Michael is, has clearly dated. It shows that we've been around doing this podcast for a while. 'Cause the question we asked our guests for a while on a number of seasons was whether they preferred Twitter or Instagram.

I feel like it's very unlikely anyone would say Twitter these days, given we know how Twitter has changed, given what's been going on politically in America and since Musk bought it.

So yeah, I can't imagine that you're going to say Twitter is your favorite. But over to you, Michael.

Michael (00:08:10)

I mean, how good is Bluesky? Just recently moved over there. It's fantastic.

This just... Yeah, I guess, you know, we give lectures on social media. And you know, now we have, I guess, a really good option for students to get involved and really speaks to a lot of the benefits of social media that are possible.

And I think I'm really happy with leaving Twitter. So definitely not Twitter.

Jen (00:08:34)

Yeah, I think that's probably my answer as well. I do love Instagram. I love visuals and I love connecting with people on Instagram.

But I think for work-related stuff, Bluesky's got me excited because it feels like the early days of Twitter. There's great community building happening right now.

Hopefully in the years to come, if people listen back to this episode, Bluesky will still exist and will still be a well-moderated, positive place of community. So let's hope that's what happens.

Jen (00:09:02)

Okay Michael, my next question for you is the question that you ask our guests before we start recording to check what their audio sounds like.

And you ask people, what did you have for breakfast today? I'm happy for you to tell me what did you have for breakfast today or what is your favourite breakfast you choose?

Michael (00:09:20)

I love the humble egg, Jen. I'm a big egg fan. It's so versatile. It really is. I mean, you can cook it in so many different ways. But I do like scrambled eggs, not overcooked. Yeah, just maybe a bit of hot sauce on there. You can't beat it.

Jen (00:09:37)

I'm going to agree with you. If it's cooler weather, I'm gonna say a poached egg on toast with some avocado, there's no competition.

But I think for me in summer, I really like fresh fruit and yoghurt. So for me, it's a bit seasonal.

Michael (00:09:44)

Yeah, fresh fruit and yoghurt is a good one.
Or you could have both. Why not have both?

Jen (00:09:57)

Indeed.

Michael (00:10:00)

Okay. So we're getting through the questions, Jen. The next one that I'd like to ask is, what is your favourite science-related movie or book?

Jen (00:10:10)

Look, that's so hard 'cause there's so many of them. But I think for me, something that I absolutely love that I've probably never talked about on the podcast is time travel.

I just, I've been fixated since I was quite young with this idea of what if we could travel in time. So I think for me, you know, a book probably like "The Time Traveler's Wife" I love. There's a whole, yeah, I mean, there's so many books out there that are all about time travel.

So yeah, I'm going to say something about time travel, whether it's a movie or a book. I just love the thought experiments that come with that.

Michael (00:10:44)

Yeah, it is. It can get pretty complicated pretty quickly.
But yeah, some like movies like the "12 Monkeys" Spring to Mind.

Jen (00:10:51)

Yeah, exactly.

Michael (00:10:53)

Yeah, yeah, really really good.

Jen (00:10:54)

What about you?

Michael (00:10:55)

For me, similar. I like the idea of thinking about the far future, what might be possible.
And I recently read "The Three-Body Problem" trilogy.

Jen (00:11:06)

Yep.

Michael (00:11:07)

And you know, it's got a lot of physics in there. Don't know how accurate it is. I mean, it's not completely inaccurate. But just the possibilities of space travel and you know, all of the technologies that might be possible.

I just think it's a wonderful book. Don't want to give away too much of the plot, but strong recommendation there for that trilogy.

Jen (00:11:21)

Love it.

Jen (00:11:28)

I'll put it on my summer reading list. Thank you.

Michael (00:11:30)

Yes. Speaking of summer, it's hot. We like to eat ice cream.
We like to eat ice cream all year round though, in fairness.

Jen (00:11:38)

We do, we love eating ice cream.

When recently, a cartoonist did an amazing portrait of our teaching team as a present for my 50th birthday. What an amazing gift to receive.

We were all eating ice cream in the portrait.

Michael (00:11:52)

Yeah, and we were in penguin form.

Jen (00:11:54)

We were.

Michael (00:11:55)

Yeah. So if you had to be a flavour of ice cream. Then Jen, what flavour would you be and why?

Jen (00:12:03)

Oh my gosh. I love ice cream. How do you answer this?

I think I'm going to say mint choc chip, right? Because I love chocolate. I'm a chocoholic. Chocolate. You know, rich, decadent, comforting. You know, exciting. So it's got the chocolate.

But then the mint is, you know, like it's kind of refreshing. Mint is all about sort of staying cool under pressure, which I reckon I'm pretty good at.

So yeah, I'm going to say mint choc chip, Michael. How about you?

Michael (00:12:30)

Okay. Cool, calm and collected.

Jen (00:12:32)

That's right.

Michael (00:12:33)

I thought about this. And I mean, there's all the delicious flavors. But if you were a delicious flavour of ice cream, then wouldn't you be at risk of being eaten?

So I'm going to go the other way, Jen. I'm going to be broccoli flavour ice cream because I've never tried it. But it's probably not as delicious as salted caramel, which is my favourite.

But I just think, you know, I want to not be delicious. I want to survive. I don't want to get eaten.

Jen (00:13:00)

Fair enough, Michael. I will remember not to eat the next broccoli ice cream, I say, in case it's you reincarnated.

Michael (00:13:07)

Yeah, go easy on them.

What do you think is our most overused phrase on the podcast, Jen?

Jen (00:13:14)

Oh my gosh. I think there's lots of them. 'Cause I do, you do the audio editing. I do the transcripts.

I think I tend to say "really" far too often because I get so excited and everything becomes extreme in my mouth.

I think one of my favourite things is that no matter how you are, no matter who we're interviewing, no matter what's going on, when we first start the podcast, you always say how excited you are for the guest.

Michael (00:13:38)

Yeah, yeah.

Jen (00:13:39)

You've never said, you know, "Oh, I'm a bit tired today". Or you know, you've never said anything other than just, "I'm excited".

And knowing you, that is genuine.

Michael (00:13:49)

I am, yeah. Because you know, all of our guests have been so interesting and you know, on different topics that you, you know, you don't often get to explore.

I think for me, I definitely notice I say when I'm asking my questions, I'll say, "I'm really curious to ask". And I always say that, but I think I used to say something that I've cut out now. And I don't know if I've repressed it from my memory, but "absolutely", that's what I used to say a lot.

"Absolutely", at the start of responding to the guest. But yeah, so I just need to cut out, "I'm very curious to ask you".

Jen (00:14:32)

Well, it's good to be curious.

Michael (00:14:34)

It is good to be curious.

Jen (00:14:35)

Let me guess, you're really curious about the next question.

Michael (00:14:37)

So Jen, I'm really curious to ask you, what is your favorite science-related joke?

Jen (00:14:46)

And you know what? I'm really curious about the fact that I totally forgot I was going to ask ChatGPT to give me a good science-related joke because I'm terrible at jokes.

So in the interest of Michael being the joke teller of the two of us and having just ridiculous numbers of dad jokes up his sleeve, I'm gonna veto this one in order to give you an extra 20 seconds, Michael. Tell us, what's your favorite science-related joke?

Michael (00:15:10)

Great.
Oh look, I don't know how science-y it is, but... And this is a true story, by the way.

Michael (00:15:20)

I guess there's the you know, there's the science of bees, right? You know, that's a topic of science. And I'm a pretty big fan of bees. I really like to celebrate National Bee Day or World Bee Day even.

But I'm going to have to you know, take it easy this year, Jen. I went a bit wild last year, so I'm really going to have to beehive myself this year.

Jen (00:15:41)

That is so bad.
That's really bad.

Michael (00:15:47)

I know, but I can give you another one that's maybe more science-related. A science communication-related one, which is why did the science communicator bring a ladder to their presentation?

Jen (00:15:57)

Oh, why?

Michael (00:16:00)

They wanted to make sure their points reached everyone.

Jen (00:16:03)

Oh, that's not really funny at all, but kind of cool. It reminds me of my children's favorite joke when they were younger. Why did the one-handed man cross the road?

Michael (00:16:16)

I don't know.

Jen (00:16:17)

To go to the second-hand shop.

That's about the quality of my jokes. So I feel like we should move right along.

Michael (00:16:25)

Yes, moving right along. Nothing to see here.

What's your favorite science fact to pull out at parties?

Jen (00:16:35)

I think this depends on whether it's an Australian audience or an international audience.

If it's an international audience, I have to tell people that it really is true that wombats do square poos because they don't think it's true.

And explain you know, how wombats have evolved to do square poos and it's good because it means they can mark their territory more effectively 'cause the poos don't roll away and all that sort of stuff.

But if it's kind of just a local party where people are not going to be that interested about wombats, I think my favorite fact is... Do you know Michael what the collective noun for flamingos is?

Michael (00:17:08)

You mean maflingos?

Jen (00:17:11)

Maflingos, exactly.
What is the collective noun?

Michael (00:17:15)

I have no idea. I would just be guessing. What is it?

Jen (00:17:18)

I love it. It's a flamboyance of flamingos.

Michael (00:17:21)

Wow, that's lovely.

Jen (00:17:23)

So I think that's my favorite fact. Just like who came up with such a delightful thing to say that those flamingos are a flamboyance? I think that's great.

Michael (00:17:32)

Yeah, yeah. I think my one is not as exciting or flamboyant.

But yeah, it's just you know, the power of exponential thinking and how our brains are not hardwired to think exponentially. With the example being how many times you [need] to fold a piece of paper that might be one millimeter thick before the thickness of it reaches the moon.

And it's a number much lower than you think it would be. I think it's like 48 or something. But you know, the idea is you're just doubling that distance. So it's one millimeter, two, four, eight. And if you do that 48 times, you'll have a stack of paper that reaches the moon.

Jen (00:18:08)

Wow. Yeah, that is quite impressive.

Michael (00:18:13)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause we just, we don't think exponentially.

And you know, we often overestimate what we can do in the short term and underestimate what we can do in the long term because of that.

Jen (00:18:23)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good. I like it.

Well speaking, kind of staying in the same gist Michael, my next question for you is one we've asked I think, almost all of our guests. And that is if you could choose to have a superpower, what superpower would you choose?

Michael (00:18:39)

Oh, would have to be really fast flying. I wanted to say teleportation, but then you miss out on the experience of flying.

So you know, I want to be able to travel between here and Ireland very quickly. So fast flying. So I'd be, you know, up in the stratosphere, flying back to Ireland in like 26 seconds.

Jen (00:19:02)

Yeah, it's so boring, but I think my answer's the same.

Having just gone and seen "Wicked" yesterday. You know, flying would be super, super cool. But yeah, I do just want to be able to transport myself to you know...

Your best friend overseas is having a birthday. Cool, I'll be at the party. No problem. I can still be back at work in Melbourne tomorrow. Yeah, I think I agree. Just being able to get anywhere, anytime would be so good.

Next question for you, Michael. What's one thing about your field of science that you think a lot of people get wrong? What's a myth?

Michael (00:19:32)

Yeah, so I'm in the area of sedentary behavior research. And one thing that a lot of people say is, "Oh, I've heard sitting is the new smoking." Which is not true.

Because if sitting were the new smoking, you'd have to wait until you're 18 before you could sit down. So you could just imagine a world where that's true.

Jen (00:19:57)

Yeah, I actually did a radio story, just last week actually, talking about the fact that there is new research also to show that standing all day also isn't good for you.

You and I are big proponents of you know, sit-stand desks. We alternate all the time. Right now, we're both standing up. But yeah, the research showing that actually standing all day is not good either. Also has problems, so...

Michael (00:20:17)

What about you, Jen?

Jen (00:20:19)

Well, it's been a long time since I've worked in the field of ecology. So I guess I would say my area of science is science communication.

And I guess, I don't know, just this idea that anyone can be a good communicator without trying. You know, and the corollary of that then is people who think, Well, because I wasn't born a great speaker, I'm never going to be a great speaker.So I think just the fact that effective communication is a learned skill and we all have to practice. And most scientists are really keen to share their work, but they haven't been given the training to be able to do that well. And if you want to do that and you feel like you can't do it well, that's fine. You can learn. But it's not something that just everyone can do.

So I guess recognising that science communication is a field in and of itself and it takes time to learn those skills I think, yeah.

Next question, Michael, what have you learned about managing work-life balance? That elusive thing out there.

Michael (00:21:11)

Ooh. What's that? What?

Jen (00:21:14)

Yeah, exactly.

Michael (00:21:16)

Yeah, look, I feel like having a baby in the last 18 months has kind of forced work-life balance onto me. But maybe you don't need to have a baby to have work-life balance if you just have other things that are important in your life outside of work.

And yeah, make sure you leave time for those things. Yeah, I don't know. It's hard with you, when you have a job where you can't switch off, but that's kind of what you have to do. And maybe the way to do that is to just focus on other things that are important to you.

Jen (00:21:45)

Yep.

Michael (00:21:45)

What do you think, Jen? Have you found the secret to work-life balance?

Jen (00:21:48)

I think for me, it's about prioritising sleep. Putting, you know, making, getting enough sleep are non-negotiable. So I just don't work at night anymore. You know, most academics do a lot of work at night. I don't, ever. I don't ever work at night anymore.

So I think just making sure I get enough sleep and then also seeing my hobbies as non-negotiable. So for me, that's, it's not really a hobby. But you know, spending time with my kids, doing great things with them. Exercise is non-negotiable. Seeing my friends is non-negotiable.

And you know, of course you have to balance those things. It's not like you can spend every day doing the fun things.

But yeah, I think just recognising that work is only one of many priorities has been important for me. Yeah.

Speaking about fun events Michael, we've asked a few of our guests this question. If you were hosting a dinner party and you could invite one scientist. They can be alive or dead; we're not picky here. Who would you invite?

Michael (00:22:42)

Yeah, look, I think I'd really, I'm fascinated by the history of science communication. Like how has it looked in the past?

And you know, like the Faraday lectures, Michael Faraday traveling around, you know, and doing the Christmas lectures and what that would be like. Or you know, what would the motivations for doing that be?

We talk now about the challenge of setting aside time for science communication. Or I mean, it's not a challenge for us because we believe in it. But I think there's still that perception that you know, it can distract from doing actual science. But you know, imagine what it was like a hundred years ago.

Jen (00:23:18)

Yeah, absolutely.

Michael (00:23:20)

So I'd love to know more about what that was like and the motivations for doing those lectures.

What about you, Jen? Have you got anyone you'd like to invite?

Jen (00:23:29)

I think it would have to be Charles Darwin. You know, as a former, current evolutionary biologist. I just love to hear his stories about being on the Beagle, traveling.

You know, we know that it wasn't just a eureka moment that he saw these finches and their beaks and suddenly went, "Aha, I declare evolution is a thing."

You know, it wasn't like that. It was years and years of painstaking travel and note-taking and observation and reflection.

And I just think hearing some of his stories about those travels and what he learned and the pressures he faced at the time culturally in a very religious dominated society to be proposing this theory, which really upended that.

I think, yeah, just having the opportunity to hear his experiences, I think would be incredible. Yeah.

Okay Michael, next question. This is a very personal one, my friend. Let's see how you go.

Michael (00:24:24)

Yeah.

Jen (00:24:24)

Do you have? It's December. Do you have a new year's resolution for next year?
And if so, are you willing to share it?

Michael (00:24:31)

I do have a new year's resolution, Jen. And it comes from watching myself back, watching recordings of myself and just thinking, I wish I would be a bit more smiley.

Yeah, I feel like I want to work on being a more smiley person because I can feel happy on the inside, but sometimes my face is you know, resting, as they say. But it doesn't mean I'm not happy on the inside.

So yeah, that's my new year's resolutions.

Jen (00:25:03)

I think we should just spend more time together, Michael. 'Cause I feel like when we're together, you and I can laugh and smile almost constantly, so...

Michael (00:25:10)

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true.
So if I can just, can keep that going for the rest of the day when I'm not doing the podcast.

Jen (00:25:18)

Yeah, perfect.

Michael (00:25:19)

Yeah, yeah. What about you, Jen?

Jen (00:25:22)

Look, I honestly haven't thought about it. I sort of, you know, I know a lot about the science of habit forming.

I tend to do a radio story nearly every year about how we can all stick to our new year's resolutions better and are there better ways to set goals?

So on the one hand, I feel like my answer should be no. I don't think there's any point in setting a resolution on the 1st of January. I think it needs to be, come from a deeper place than that.

But I think for me, just trying to be more present in every situation. I think life's, you know, the older you get, the busier life is. So I don't have a baby anymore, but I've got two teenagers who are just fabulous, busy people.

And my partner and I are both really busy people. And it can be very easy just for every week to disappear in a haze of, does everyone have what they need? And can they get to the place they need to be? And do we have enough food in the fridge?

So I think just yeah, if I have a goal, it would be just to try and slow down a bit and enjoy the privilege of all the wonderful things that I have in my life and all these incredible people I get to interact with and just enjoy each moment more rather than trying to just get through the days. That's my goal.

But you know, I'm starting that right now. I'm not going to wait till the 1st of January. I'm starting that today.

Michael (00:26:26)

Hear hear, let's do it. Yeah, 'cause you can, sometimes the weeks just roll past and it's like, Yeah, wow, where did the time go? So I'm on board for that one.

Jen (00:26:34)

Yeah.

Michael (00:26:37)

Okay, we've got that last couple of questions to get through, Jen.

Back to a food-related one now. So if you could...

Jen (00:26:43)

Excellent, we love food.

Michael (00:26:44)

We do.

If you could only eat one food for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Jen (00:26:49)

Oh my gosh, it's a toss-up between something delicious Vietnamese. You know, a pho or a yummy Vietnamese salad or delicious rice paper rolls or something like that.

Or just a raspberry, just raspberries. I just love raspberries. But I think probably I wouldn't be that healthy if all I ever ate for the rest of my life was raspberries.

So I better stick with some delicious Vietnamese banquet, I think.

Michael (00:27:13)

Yeah, okay. I was going to pick a single food, but maybe I should should have picked a Vietnamese banquet.

But mine would be mango. You know, nothing beats the experience of just tucking into a big juicy mango.
Yeah, definitely...

Jen (00:27:26)

I think you and I can't be friends anymore 'cause mango is one of my least favorite fruits.

So maybe it means we're really good friends because I'll eat all the raspberries and the passionfruit and you can eat all the mango.

Michael (00:27:37)

Yeah, we can survive on that desert island.

Jen (00:27:39)

Yeah. Pefect.

Michael (00:27:40)

I think we'd be, yeah, we wouldn't be competing for food.

If you could time travel to witness one scientific discovery or event in person, what would it be?

Jen (00:27:53)

I want to see the first person to interact with fire. Like, just imagine. If you've never seen fire before and suddenly, you know, is it a lightning strike? Is it, I don't know where the fire comes from.

Or maybe the first person to be able to harness fire for their own, you know, in a safe way for their own advantage. Cooking, getting warm, getting light.

Yeah, I would just love to see that experience of someone seeing fire when it's not a part of culture.

Michael (00:28:22)

That's a great example because so many discoveries are, maybe they don't realise how profound it is at the time. And it's kind of like maybe years later that the, how important it is becomes apparent.

But one discovery that I would like to be a fly on the wall for is when Albert Hofmann synthesized LSD and ingested it and went for a bicycle ride. Yeah, just wasn't expecting that to happen.

I think he accidentally ingested it the first time and then the bicycle ride was the second time he did it on purpose. So yeah, it would be very interesting to cycle alongside him.

Jen (00:29:07)

Folks, do not try this at home. Please do not take that as a recommendation.

Michael (00:29:14)

Okay, can you describe your work in three words, Jen?

Jen (00:29:19)

The first one would have to be connection because connecting people, collaborations, connecting ideas, connecting thoughts, connection is definitely the first one.

I guess communication has to be the second, right? So yeah, connection, communication.

And so that means I need to come up with a third C just because we both really love alliteration. What's a good third C? Curiosity, there you go. Nailed it. Connection, communication, curiosity. They're my three.

How about you, Michael?

Michael (00:29:47)

I don't know if I can do an alliteration.

But yeah, I mean, it would be, I'd have one, one would be communication for the science communication side of my role.

I guess exercise because that's my area of research.

Leaving me with a third, which I would insert "fun" into the mix there. Because I think it's important to, you know, enjoy what you do for work.

So those might be my three words.

Jen (00:30:16)

Love it.

Michael (00:30:17)

Do you have a science themed bucket list, Jen, and what would be on it?

Jen (00:30:22)

I think the only thing really that I truly feel like is on a bucket list of mine is to see a really good Aurora. Which I know a lot of people have seen, even you know, in our, where we live in Melbourne this year, there's been some extraordinary events. Sadly, I didn't see any of the really amazing ones. I just wasn't in the right places at the right time.

So maybe I'll say my bucket list is to see the Northern Lights, just those dancing lights in the sky. Somewhere, you know, far Northern Norway. Or, you know, right up in the Arctic Circle. Yeah, that's got to be mine, I reckon.

What's something on your bucket list, Michael?

Michael (00:30:57)

Yeah, look, something that I would love to be able to do is just to travel to different labs around the world and maybe spend, you know, six months working there, picking up new ideas, a new culture.

I mean, it can be really transformative for people who do travel overseas, perhaps after their PhD, and get some experience and then come back and bring that experience home.

But yeah, I mean, it'd be so great to have the flexibility and the money to just travel to loads of different countries, maybe 10.

Jen (00:31:29)

Well, if you could fly... If you could fly, then it would become a lot cheaper.

Michael (00:31:33)

There you go, just need to work on that.

Okay, last question. And it's last but not least. What's your very top tip for communicating effectively about science, Jen?

Jen (00:31:46)

I feel like there's a lot of pressure on us to answer this question, right? That's the whole... That is our job, that is our podcast.

We've asked dozens and dozens and dozens of experts for their top tip. And you know, you sort of feel this pressure to not replicate something that somebody else has said, 'cause it's boring, and I should come up with something different and radical and new.

But you know, maybe there isn't something difficult and radical and new, and maybe the best answer is just really the basics of know who you're trying to communicate with, know what your goal is, and then use stories to connect with people. I think that that would have to be top for me.

Michael (00:32:26)

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, something that I think a lot of people think when they think effective science communication is, Oh, you've got to have the gift of the gab. And that might be the icing on the cake.

But I think really where a lot of the heavy lifting is done is in the quality of your ideas and the order in which you present them. Really thinking about what does the audience need to know in order that they can care about what I have to say?

Jen (00:32:53)

Yep.

Michael (00:32:55)

Because you know, they don't automatically care about what you have to say. You need to kind of prime them to care. So you need to think about what's the context that I need to provide here. So yeah.

Jen (00:33:03)

Yeah, I think it's all about providing value, isn't it?

It's all about kind of not seeing yourself as the most important, but rather seeing your audience as the most important and valuing their time and their energy and their attention, and giving them something of value that ideally will then also give value back to you. i.e. they will learn something and do something different, whatever it is.

But yeah, I think that's a really, a really good point. And yeah, maybe our top tip is just practice, you know?

Michael (00:33:30)

Yeah.

Jen (00:33:31)

Practice, because I don't think anyone's born with the gift of the gab.

I think people who are fabulous speakers have done a lot of speaking. Fabulous writers have done a lot of writing and a lot of reading. People who are really extraordinary at connecting with audiences have practiced that a lot. So maybe that should be our top tip.

Top tip is (1) listen to our podcast, and (2) keep practicing. How's that for a great way to end?

Michael (00:33:53)

Yeah. that's it, that's it. Top tip, listen to our 100 episodes and then come back to us.

Jen (00:34:00)

Well, Michael, I'm very proud of us for reaching episode 100. I can't wait. We're going to be back just as strong and excited and well-edited next year. And yeah, just what a pleasure to get to work with you on this. So thank you for all the work you do.

Huge thanks to Stephanie and Steven who were with us right at the very beginning. They were both students then. They now are out in the workforce, but they've helped us from the very beginning create this podcast back in 2021. And along the way, we've worked with a whole lot of other fabulous students.

So to anyone who's ever listened, liked, shared, contributed, given us a tip, been interviewed by us, just huge thanks.

We're rather delighted to get to episode 100, and I wouldn't want to have done it with anyone but you, Michael.

Michael (00:34:43)

Oh. Thank you, Jen. Yeah, it's been such a great experience. You know, learning from you, learning from all our guests.

You know, it's such a privilege that people would give up some of their time to come and chat with us.

So... And also the same for the listeners. You're giving up your time to listen to us. I really appreciate that.

Jen (00:34:58)

We do. And have a lovely end of the year, everybody. Enjoy your summer if you are here with us in the Southern Hemisphere. Have a wonderful winter if you're in the Northern Hemisphere. We hope everyone can get some rest in the weeks to come, and we will be back with new episodes.

We're thinking about February next year. We are going to take a bit of a rest as well, but you'll see us on the socials and we'll be back with some fabulous new episodes then.

So for now, thank you for listening. And that is over and out for episode 100 of Let's Talk SciComm.

Michael (00:35:29)

Whoo! Have a great holiday, everyone.

We'll see you next year.

Jen (00:35:51)

Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm from the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I'm Associate Professor Jen Martin and my brilliant cohost is Dr Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:36:06)

And if you've enjoyed listening to this episode, we'd love you to share it with your friends and family. We'd love you to share your favourite episode online. And you can find us at LetsTalkSciComm on X, formerly known as Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Jen (00:36:20)

And this season, we are asking for your help to spread the word so that more people find out about our podcast.

So if you enjoy listening, we would love you to tell a friend, but we'd also love you to think about taking a couple of minutes to write us a review.

Whatever platform you listen on, there will be a place for you to leave a review. And we're going to keep track and award our favourite reviewees some prizes.

We're thinking about some merch. And we'd also love to reward our favourite review with a free science communication workshop that we will run for you in person or online, depending on whereabouts you are.

Michael (00:36:59)

Ooh, prizes. And if... They sound great. And if you'd like to get in touch to suggest a guest or a future topic, we'd love to hear from you. Please email us at lets.talk.scicomm@gmail.com. And as always, a huge thank you to our production team Stephanie Wong and Steven Tang.