Episode 95 - Interview with science communication consultant Rachael Vorwerk

Transcript

Jen (00:00:22)

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm. We are delighted that you have chosen to listen today.
I'm Jen, and as ever, I am joined by the fabulous Dr. Michael Wheeler. Good morning, Michael.

Michael (00:00:37)

Hello, Jen. I'm doing great this morning. Fabulous Dr. Michael Wheeler. That's a new one for this podcast, I think. But really excited for today's episode, Jen, because we have a very special guest.

I know we have lots of special guests, but this one is particularly special because we're speaking with Rachael Vorwerk, who is a friend of our team and someone who's really created an interesting career in science communication. But who started out as one of your students Jen, back in the early days, which was before my time.

Jen (00:01:11)

Yeah, I have actually no idea what year it was that Rachael studied with me. Perhaps we can ask her in a moment.

But you know, Rachael absolutely stood out from the very beginning as someone who knew where she was going and was going to make a huge impact. Just this super engaged, passionate student. I remember having lots of great chats in class.

Michael (00:01:30)

The other thing I wanted to say is that, Rachael, you've also been a really valued guest speaker coming back to speak to the undergrads. And they are in the position that you were once in when you took science communication as an undergrad.

And I think one of the things that's really impressed me about the career talk that you've given is really the I guess, the resilience that you've shown in forging a career in science communication, you know, amidst kind of the challenges of juggling multiple jobs and doing freelance work, to be in a position now where you are really an established and accomplished science communicator.

So just for the listeners, I won't name all of the many roles that you've had, but I think some of the main ones are that you've worked at CSIRO as a communications advisor. You've also worked as a science communicator with Science in Public.

You've taught at Deakin University, teaching digital media communication and advertising. And you've also worked as a science communicator at the Integrated Photonics and Applications Center, which is a mouthful.

But your current role, which is a really interesting name for a Center of Excellence, but you are the science communication education and outreach manager at the ARC Center for Excellence in Optical Microcombs for Breakthrough Science.

Jen (00:02:55)

Well done.

Michael (00:02:56)

So, you know, I guess the first question I have to ask is what is a microcomb?

Rachael (00:03:01)

Oh my goodness, it's the bane of my existence.
Well, the title of our center is.

Jen (00:03:10)

Is that the Oxford definition, you know, Oxford dictionary definition of a microcomb, the bane of Rachael's life?

Rachael (00:03:17)

I think it is, I should coin that. I like that, Jen. I don't know how the other researchers will feel when I say that, maybe they feel the same.

All right, a microcomb, it's an incredibly precise way of measuring light. It's a ruler for light. So I guess it's a seven year center of excellence.

What we're trying to do is actually, it's very similar to the story of electronics where our phones, you know, used to be way bigger, laptops and computers used to be way bigger.

But now we are trying to miniaturise this piece of equipment called the optical frequency comb. You don't need to remember that, that's fine. But it's sort of the world's most accurate measurement tool, but it's trapped in labs around the world 'cause it's like two meters high, one meter wide.

And it was set to revolutionise the way we measure everything. You know, from like finding Earth-like planets to even seeing our body in unprecedented detail, to see diseases before they even, [before] symptoms even arise sometimes.

So we can't use that in GP clinics right now, this piece of equipment, 'cause it's so mammoth. So our center is trying to miniaturise it into a microcomb, a very small version of this world's most accurate ruler. So it can fit on a chip the size of a fingernail. So that's what a microcomb is.

Michael (00:04:40)

Wow.

Racheal (00:04:40)

It's a yeah, ruler for light, but the miniature version.

Michael (00:04:43)

That's great. Yeah, I can, 'cause I mean, the first thing I was imagining was like, you know, a comb for your hair. But I guess a ruler makes sense and the most accurate ruler that can fit on a microchip. So that's great.

The real first question that I would like to ask Rachael is to kind of take you back a little bit in time to your time studying with Jen as an undergrad, choosing to do a science communication subject, which was really in the early days of the program.

What can you remember from that time and how do you think that experience might have shaped your future career path?

Rachael (00:05:21)

Yeah really, really nice question. It's such a moment that I think really was a fork in the road for me and it completely changed my career trajectory.

And it was just so liberating. I was sort of getting okay marks, I guess, for all my other science subjects.

But for the Communicating Science and Technology subject, I always remember that I got a high 90s mark and I felt like I wasn't even trying.

Like, it was amazing. Thank you Jen, for those marks, but...

Jen (00:05:48)

You earned every single one of them, Rachael.

Rachael (00:05:54)

But I guess it just shows when you really love doing something, it doesn't feel like hard work. So I just loved the assignments. It was so fun.

And yeah, I really am so thankful for that subject. I don't know where I would be now if I hadn't have done that subject back then.

So thank you to Jen for fighting for that subject. It's so important. And I hope, well, I know so many other people have had that similar trajectory change because of that subject and I'm one of them.

Jen (00:06:24)

So Rachael, I'm not sure at this point whether I just blush or whether I cry or whether I just kind of lay down and have a rest, but thank you for being so kind because it really means a lot.

You know, you were there in the early days where science communication really wasn't, didn't have any credibility at the university. It wasn't valued. No one really understood what I was doing or why I was doing it.

And to have students like you be so engaged and give me kind of a sense of, you know, this is before I had colleagues like Michael, give me a sense of sort of being part of a team of people who really cared about this.

It changed my career too because if I hadn't had students like you, I probably just would have given up. It just would have been too hard and I would have done something different, I think.

Rachael (00:07:02)

[That] was amazing. I'm so appreciative of it. And yeah, I know how hard you were fighting for it and I'm just so happy to see such a big team now and it's awesome.

Jen (00:07:16)

The other thing that I have to admit, I think about when you talk like that is, oh my gosh, I just can't imagine how bad my classes were back then.

I just feel like I've evolved so much since then, both in terms of my understandings of communication, but also in how to teach.

I just think, gosh, thank goodness there's no recordings of my classes back then 'cause I might be in for quite a shock, I think.

Rachael (00:07:38)

What if I told you that I did record it?

Jen (00:07:41)

Oh, you did not.

Rachael (00:07:43)

I didn't. I didn't.

Jen (00:07:46)

Oh, you're such a fibber.

Rachael (00:07:46)

I thought they were pretty good, so I don't know what the classes are like now, but they were pretty good back then, so...

Jen (00:07:53)

Well, all that matters is that you and I have you know, both discovered this absolute passion and love for communication.

And I just, like I do think Rachael, like Michael said in the introduction, I do think what you've done is pretty extraordinary because it's not uncommon for us to have students in our classes who come away sort of saying, "Oh, wow, you know, I knew I loved science, but now I've discovered that actually communicating about science is my passion. How am I going to find a job?"

And although we are always encouraging and positive, we are also realistic that there's not that many jobs out there in the world that have the title science communicator.

There are multitudes of jobs working in science where you need to communicate, but there's not that many jobs out there that you know, that have the title science communicator.

But you've done a lot of stuff. Like you found an incredible number of roles to explore your skills and your passions for science communication. You know, you're a customer service officer at Museums Victoria, then you're at CSIRO. Now you're doing this amazing role with COMBS.

I don't know, I think it's so easy for so many of us to look back in hindsight and sort of say "Yeah, but none of that was planned. It was just kind of happenstance, and now I can tell this nice story with hindsight".

Like, did you have any awareness that you are crafting this incredible career in science communication or did it just kind of happen bit by bit?

Rachael (00:09:11)

I think I always sort of had a bit of a guiding star that whatever role I ended up in, I wanted it to be very focused on translating complex information into engaging content.

But I think, yeah, I totally know what you mean where you can look back and it seems like this really coherent narrative, but it was definitely...

Jen (00:09:35)

Yeah. You can make it sound so good after the fact.

Rachael (00:09:38)

Yes. And I always tried to build on skills that I knew that I needed to improve.

So I remember coming to you, Jen, you know, once I graduated in 2014 and I said, "Well, how on earth do I even build a portfolio now of science communication stuff?"

And you said, "You need to start writing and you need to just get out there and start doing stuff".

And then I said, "Well, how?" And you said, "Okay, I've got these two PhD contacts and they would probably be quite receptive to you writing an article about their work."

And so I went and had a coffee with them. I remember I was so nervous. And I interviewed them and then got an article published in a magazine. I think it's behind me in Decision Point.

I don't know if you've heard of that environmental decision-making magazine. That was my first portfolio piece.

And then after that, I went to Europe for three and a half months and I thought, Well, great, I'm on holidays, but I still want to have a purpose for this trip.So then I made a travel blog called The Great Migrachion, one of my best puns ever.

And I just kept writing the whole time. It wasn't science, but it was about sort of, you know, historical things about each city I went to.

And then came back, got that job at Museums Victoria, and I was just trying so hard to get into communicating science.

But then I thought one day, Hang on, every time I sort of take someone on a little tour of an exhibition, I think I'm communicating science.

And then, yeah, I guess there was sort of that semi-reflection happening, but not a very conscious thing along the way.

But then in the end, I just couldn't get a job in science communication without more communication qualifications. I kept applying for roles and just couldn't get there.

So then I did that Master's of Communication at RMIT. That was such a springboard 'cause then they had this internship subject, and then I got the internship at CSIRO.

To me, that was a really defining moment of having CSIRO on my resume just then led me, it sort of opened doors.

Jen (00:11:52)

Yeah.

Rachael (00:11:53)

But you know, that initial advice of just getting out there, building my portfolio was such good advice.

Michael (00:12:03)

It's a great example of, you know, as I mentioned in the intro, really forging a career path.

And for students who might be listening who are interested in science communication, who are maybe thinking, Ooh, maybe I would like to work in science communication also. Do you have any advice for them, Rachael, maybe about some of the obstacles that you've faced along the way, whether that's about communicating complex topics or just managing the workload associated with juggling multiple jobs?

Rachael (00:12:36)

Yeah, the multiple jobs one was, it's an interesting time to look back on because I think when I... I think at one point, I had four jobs that I was doing, and it was pretty much at the start of COVID. And I seemed to have energy for that. I was sort of up for it. I was...

It was as though you know, all the other things in my life, like you know, I guess I'm a tennis player, I'm a netball player. I didn't have any of those things. So suddenly I had all this extra time.

I guess the advice that I would give to someone who is trying to juggle lots of things happening at once is just checking in with yourself and thinking, Am I getting value or am I enjoying this thing that I'm doing right now?And if I'm not, then maybe I need to reallocate some of that time or say, "No, it's not actually the best thing for me to do that anymore." 'Cause I think it's a skill to also be able to know when something isn't giving you value anymore.

But I guess just keep trying to do things on the side then that is, that are progressing you towards that end goal and have mentors, have people that you want to be like in your life. So you've sort of got a guiding star of where you can aim to be. I think you can't be what you can't see.

I think not only in terms of seeing female leaders that you want to be like, it's just anything. You can't be what you can't see. I couldn't be a female science communicator or just a science communicator as a human being without seeing another person forging the path for me. And I think Jen, you were the first person for me for that. You really showed me that I could become that.

Jen (00:14:19)

Oh thanks, Rachael. I won't get teary 'cause it won't make for a good podcast. But one of the ways that I want to be more like you, Rachael, is I think you are an incredibly creative person.

And I feel like one of the things that I've lost maybe in the last few years as I've got busier and busier and you know, the absolute privilege of becoming more senior in a role and having more opportunities and more responsibilities, you know, all things that I'm incredibly grateful for. But the busier I've got, the less I find myself able to kind of think creatively because I'm just getting through each day and all of the things that happen each day.

And you and I were together in Perth recently at the Australian Science Communicators Conference. And you were talking with me about some of the things you're doing in your current role, interviewing scientists about how they envisage the work they're doing now, impacting the world in the future and all sorts of amazing ideas.

Talk to me about how you've prioritised creativity in your role. Because I think one of the hard things about science communication is that you know, it's a very niche field, there's not that many people in it and it can sort of feel like you just need to be you know, to do what's expected.

I don't know. I'm really interested in how you've managed to really bring such creative thought to what you do.

Rachael (00:15:38)

I think a big part of this is having a boss that allows that creativity and has the trust to allow me to do it, basically.

My boss isn't a science communicator. He's a distinguished professor. And so he brought me into his research centre four years ago, Integrated Photonics and Applications Centre. You said that earlier, Michael.

But he brought me in as an experiment from the outset and he said, "I don't know what this is going to be like, having a science communicator embedded within an engineering team of 30 people. But we're going to try it and we're going to see if having you in the team can help us to get more grant funding, can help us to raise our profile, I guess, ultimately to win more grant funding. But to increase collaborations, work with industry."

And so because he's got this experimental mindset and I should call him out, Arnan Mitchell is his name, everything is set as an experiment.

So whatever you try will never be a failure, it will just be a piece of information that then informs the next thing that you do.

He's sort of got this experimental mindset and I've got this creativity and that's just allowed me to completely flourish in the way that I've been able to tackle some of these challenges that I've had along the way, but from a really creative point of view.

And you know, things haven't worked in the past that I've tried. But that's okay, I don't get punished for that. I sort of get... It's sort of a funny reflection of, "Okay yeah, that probably didn't work, Rachael did it. So I'll do something different this time."

I think, yeah, the creativity thing, I also think a key part of it is to have things outside of work reminding you of what inspires you. So lately I've been watching so many documentaries and I find that that's just such a source of inspiration for me and I can draw upon that really creative storytelling and bring that into my work.

So that's probably the piece of advice I'd give you Jen, if I may, you know?

Jen (00:17:53)

I'm absolutely open to your advice, Rachael. Advise away.

Rachael (00:18:02)

I guess, what inspired you in the first place to get into science communication and how can you keep engaging with that on the side?

So it doesn't feel like work on weekends, but just as a reminder of, "Oh, I'm so inspired by this science communication. I'm going to keep sort of that little guiding star of inspiration in my life along the way."

Michael (00:18:23)

Yeah, it's been... I mean, it's great that you're able to bring your creativity into that role and that you've had the freedom to really try things out and to flourish.

But I guess you're also working you know, in an environment where you're embedded within a team, as you said of you know, 30 other scientists.

How do you kind of take their perspectives on board, you know, in a way that I guess shapes some of the things that you're doing? 'Cause presumably, you know, you have your own ideas and you've been given a lot of freedom to pursue those.

But how do you take on board kind of the ideas of the broader team to inform some of the science communication work that you've done?

Rachael (00:19:06)

I guess the one way that I worked with the researchers was really trying to have one-on-one sessions with them of, "Okay, let's talk about your own research narrative."

And I'd say things like, "What's your research story?" And that was the wrong phrase at the start.

They're just like, "I don't know what you mean by research story. What's my story?"

So over time I said, "Alright, what's the real world application you're trying to overcome?" "Okay, why would someone on the street care about that? What's your research trying to do to overcome that?"

So I guess in that way, I was working very closely with the researcher trying to finesse their story with them.

And then someone might be way more keen to kind of do an Instagram post if they had really good illustration skills. One of the researchers I did, I worked with did have those.

So he would communicate his research in a visual form, but then others would be really keen on using LinkedIn to build their relationship with industry.

So in that way, I could tailor the approach for each researcher, depending on their skillset.

Jen (00:20:14)

Rachael, something listening to you, something I'd really like to understand is how much do you think you've learned to be able to do your job well from your university education, you know, both your undergrad in science and your masters in communication, and how much have you just had to learn on the job?

I guess what I'm getting at is there'll be people listening who look at your career and think, "Wow, I want to do that, but I just don't know enough."

You know, is a lot of it learning on the job and learning from the people around you, or do you not even get a foot in the door unless you've got a whole lot of expert training, do you think?

Rachael (00:20:49)

It's a good question. Yeah, I really do think a lot of it was working on the job.

At what point do you feel like you can apply for a science communication job? I would just apply all the time for any job, whether... For any science communication job, whether or not you feel confident or not, the interview experience is then something you get out of it.

I guess, yeah, I can really credit that to my parents where they, I grew up in the country. I feel like this is such a cliche country mindset, but I just feel like you can't take anything for granted, so you just have to keep working for it.

And I just would apply for jobs that were completely outside of my skill, not skillset, but depth, basically. I remember applying... This is so crazy, I just remembered this. I remember applying for, I think it was a, I don't think it was a chief executive officer role, CEO role, but I think it was sort of the advisor to the director of some sort of company. And I just applied for it and got a rejection. I was like early 20s.

But I just thought, you know, why not? I just need to keep practicing. I need to feel like I'm doing stuff.

So I just would, I just always keep applying for everything, no matter if I didn't get it. And then I'd keep taking in sort of information as it would come in.

Someone would say, you need more communication experience or you need more qualifications in communication.

So finally I said, Okay, I've got to do another masters, I've got to do a masters degree to plug that gap. Long-winded answer there. Hopefully there were some interesting parts in there for the audience.

Michael (00:22:34)

Yeah, no, I think definitely some interesting parts.

You do kind of need to stretch yourself, right? When the criteria says three to five years experience and you've only got two, it doesn't mean you shouldn't apply.

You should absolutely apply and you know, it's also possible I guess to be overqualified, right? For a job.

And maybe they might think, Well, this person meets and exceeds all the kind of experience criteria, but how long will they be around for?So I think it's great advice to you know, try and reach for some of those jobs that are a little bit, maybe ahead of where you perceive yourself as.

Rachael (00:23:09)

Even the CEO.

Jen (00:23:09)

Well, you know, but also just to recognise that rejection is a part of it and it's not something to take personally.

And if you can get to the stage where you don't take critical or negative feedback too personally and you just see it as, Okay, this is another useful piece of information. I'm clearly not ready to be an advisor to a CEO yet. You know, that's okay.

Rachael (00:23:28)

Yeah, just keep applying. And try and get feedback from the people that you applied for too and just see what skills you are missing.

'Cause then that can really help you to plug that gap. You know, what experience do you need then? Can you fulfill that experience outside of work? And then take that and bring that into your next job interview.

I remember saying, "I've written a travel blog. It's not about science. But I put that in my CV." And now I kind of think back to that and cringe a little bit. 'Cause you know, what would someone think when they see thegreatmigrachion.org.au? Plug for that. Good luck spelling it.

But yeah I guess, just no matter what you're working on, just use it as a portfolio piece to be able to build your experience on.

Michael (00:24:18)

Yep, yep. That's really good advice.

I'm just noticing the time, Rachael. We are kind of running out of time.

But before we let you go, we would like to move to our quick questions section of the podcast.
So quick questions, quick answers.

The first question that I would like to ask is: If you could pick an alternative job to what you're doing at the moment, what would it be?

Rachael (00:24:55)

I've got to say the first thing that came to mind and it is being the presenter on a travel show.

Jen (00:25:00)

Ahh yeah, that would be so good.
I thought you were going to say professional tennis player.

Rachael (00:25:05)

Hmm, too stressful.
I'm not competitive enough.

Jen (00:25:09)

That segues beautifully to our next question then, Rachael. If you could choose to have one superpower, what superpower would you choose?

Rachael (00:25:17)

Care about what other people think less.

Jen (00:25:19)

Gosh that's, that's very deep. I like it.

Rachael (00:25:24)

Sorry. Sorry if that was meant to be a playful answer.

Jen (00:25:25)

No, no no, not at all.

Rachael (00:25:27)

But it's just something that I'm constantly trying to grapple with. So yeah.

Jen (00:25:30)

No no, we're not looking for anything in particular.
I think that's a really, really important answer. Thank you for sharing.

Rachael (00:25:37)

Yeah. If I could just switch that on, that'd be awesome.

Michael (00:25:40)

Yeah, just like a little light switch.

Rachael (00:25:43)

Yeah. Yep.

Michael (00:25:46)

Alright Rachael, if you could go back in time and give yourself a message at the age of 21, what would you say to yourself?

Rachael (00:25:54)

I would say keep doing what you are excited and passionate about and don't worry about what other people are doing. Just keep checking in with yourself.

Jen (00:26:08)

And don't worry about what other people think.

Rachael (00:26:12)

And develop a superpower in the year 2024 to not care about what other people think, ideally.

Jen (00:26:20)

That sounds excellent.

Rachael, tell us, what do you think makes a good leader?

Rachael (00:26:25)

I've just finished a women in leadership course, so this is so topical.
Empathy. Being empathetic and being self-reflective.

Jen (00:26:35)

Hear, hear, couldn't agree more.

Michael (00:26:37)

Yeah, great qualities.

Rachael (00:26:38)

Yeah, so topical.
I just had to do that exercise a couple of weeks ago, so it's very front of mind.

Michael (00:26:45)

Okay, excellent timing then.

Alrighty, Rachael. Last question that we'd like to ask. What is your very top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Rachael (00:26:56)

It's a bit of a hack, but I would always think about what the real world application is and put that at the forefront of whatever you're writing.

It seems so simple, but it's honestly, the common denominator between the scientist and the person on the street who doesn't know anything about science.

Find that connection point.

And I always think of it as the common denominator. What do you have in common with the researcher? Or you know, what does the researcher have in common with the person on the street? The real world application.

Michael (00:27:26)

Yeah.

Jen (00:27:26)

That is golden advice, Rachael. I, yeah, I think you've nailed it there.

So we just need to say huge thank you to you, Rachael. We know that you are massively busy. You do a lot of different things. And just what an utter joy to welcome you on the podcast.

And I can't believe that it was a decade ago that young Rachael was there as an undergrad and everything you've achieved over that decade is just phenomenal.

I really, I just couldn't be prouder of you. And I love the fact that we're still in touch. I love the fact that our current students get to hear from you.

Rachael (00:27:57)

Yes.

Jen (00:27:58)

And I can't wait to invite you back onto the podcast in all the years to come to hear about the next phenomenal things that you're doing.

So thank you. Thank you for joining us.

Rachael (00:28:06)

Thank you for having me.
I just had to check the date and it is 10 years. That is outrageous.

So yeah, thank you.
Thank you both for what you're doing and for having me on the podcast.

Michael (00:28:16)

Thanks, Rachael. It's been a pleasure.

Jen (00:28:38)

Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm from the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I'm Associate Professor Jen Martin and my brilliant cohost is Dr Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:28:52)

And if you've enjoyed listening to this episode, we'd love you to share it with your friends and family. We'd love you to share your favourite episode online. And you can find us at LetsTalkSciComm on X, formerly known as Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Jen (00:29:07)

And this season, we are asking for your help to spread the word so that more people find out about our podcast.

So if you enjoy listening, we would love you to tell a friend, but we'd also love you to think about taking a couple of minutes to write us a review.

Whatever platform you listen on, there will be a place for you to leave a review. And we're going to keep track and award our favourite reviewees some prizes.

We're thinking about some merch. And we'd also love to reward our favourite review with a free science communication workshop that we will run for you in person or online, depending on whereabouts you are.

Michael (00:29:43)

Ooh, prizes. And if... They sound great. And if you'd like to get in touch to suggest a guest or a future topic, we'd love to hear from you. Please email us at lets.talk.scicomm@gmail.com. And as always, a huge thank you to our production team Stephanie Wong and Steven Tang.