Episode 96 - Interview with sustainability leader and climate justice advocate Linh Do

Transcript

Jen (00:00:21)

Hello everyone. I am so thrilled to welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm. I'm Jen, and as always, I'm joined by my most excellent friend and colleague, Michael.

G'day, Michael.

Michael (00:00:34)

G'day, Jen. How are you doing today?

Jen (00:00:37)

Yes! You know it's always a good day when I get you to say g'day.
It's my little litmus test.

Michael (00:00:43)

It's going to be a good day. It's going to be a great episode. Very excited for today's guest.

Jen (00:00:48)

Yeah, well look, today, I've got a bit of a problem today, right?

Because today we have this truly remarkable guest joining us and I sort of thought, Well, how on earth am I going to introduce Linh Do adequately without me talking for half the podcast about what Linh does? So I've tried to select some highlights while giving everyone a sense of who Linh Do is.

So, okay, as a teenager, Linh was a very visible climate change activist. She was trained by Al Gore to be a climate change presenter.

She initiated a whole massive project called the Change a Million Light Bulbs Project here in Melbourne. I think she was just 15. And Linh, you're not allowed to talk yet 'cause you’ve just got to let me get this out, but you can correct me later if I'm wrong. I think she was only 15 and that ended up playing a massive role in Australia no longer selling incandescent light bulbs, which is pretty amazing.

I'm pretty sure she was the youngest person at the time to give a TEDx talk in Christchurch. Again, I don't care on the specifics. Linh, don't argue if that's wrong but picture, really young TEDx speaker.

And Linh grew up here in Melbourne where we are right now. But she's worked in more than 15 countries, including working at the UN to create social change on environmental issues.

And she's worked in a ton of different jobs, including the World Wildlife Fund, the Australian Conservation Foundation. And across all the roles, there's this really clear focus on climate justice, social justice, social change, sustainable development, the role of young people in creating change in the world.

She's been the Asia and Pacific lead for the Climate Reality Project. She's published writing and photography in all sorts of reputable places like The Guardian and The Atlantic and The Washington Post and even Vogue. My gosh, we're going to have to ask her about that.

Back in 2013, she was named the Australian Geographic Young Conservationist of the Year.

But these days, she's the director of something called the Wattle Fellowship here at the University of Melbourne. She's also a board member at the Climate Action Network Australia and the Lord Mayor's Charitable Foundation.

You get the idea, Michael. She does a ton of stuff.

I don't know how she's made time to talk with us today, but I had the great pleasure of traveling to Antarctica with Linh back in 2019 as part of Homeward Bound, which is a global leadership program for women and non-binary people in STEMM.

And essentially ever since, I've thought, I really want to sit down and talk with Linh more. I don't know why it's taken five years, but regardless, Linh, drum roll... I just need to take a breath now and say welcome to the podcast.

Linh (00:03:31)

Thank you so much for having me.

And I think when your introductions are that kind, no corrections, no notes, I'll just use that for all other future engagements as well. Thank you.

Jen (00:03:40)

Perfect, we'll give you the audio and you can just send it to people and say, "Yeah, this is me, I'm really cool".

Michael (00:03:44)

[That's] a very impressive introduction. And yeah, you know, especially since you've been involved in this space since being a teenager. So really excited to have a chat with you today, Linh.

Linh (00:03:55)

Likewise.

Jen (00:03:56)

And Linh, I think that's where I want to start.

I'd just love to hear from you. You know, do you sort of have a sense of what was driving you back then and what on earth gave you the confidence to be seen and to really take action on a global stage? I really do think it's remarkable.

Like put yourself back in little teenage Linh's shoes, how yeah, what was going on for you then?

Linh (00:04:19)

Hmm. So maybe I am the Benjamin Button of self-confidence issues. Like I grew up and like was born with just so much of it and it's only been society that's whittled away at that.

So before I even touch upon the teenage years, one of my, I wouldn't say that this is one of my earliest memories, but it's one of the stories that gets shared around the family quite a lot is there's this moment when I'm four. And I'm with my Mum at the doctor and I believe it was like her doctor's appointment and I was you know, saying something and the doctor turned to me and said, "You know, you're very sassy for a four year old." And I was like, "Oh, that is umm..."

Michael (00:04:54)

Was that a diagnosis?

Linh (00:04:56)

Yeah, I think it's a medical condition that you know, I don't know if it's curable, I don't know if there's treatment.

But it effectively has meant that in many different ways for a whole bunch of different reasons, I grew up in a context where I heard the word "no" a lot. But anytime I heard the word "no", I'd be like, "Well, excuse you, why not?" And that's where the sass comes out, you can see.

And that effectively in many ways I think, served me really well when I was young. I think sometimes young people are really, and I completely understand it with all of the mental health issues that are going on right now, really crippled by the state of the world, uncertainty, what it is that's like possible.

But for me, I heard the word "no" and went, "Okay then, I will do something about that. How dare you tell me no?"

And I think that really equipped me to embark upon what's also, like been a really great like last 15 odd years of my life, just being able to find my way through the cracks that sometimes were open and if not, what tool is like best used to break down this wall. Is it a hammer? Is it a drill? These are the only tools I know, because evidently I don't actually do much woodworking.

Michael (00:06:03)

That's great. I mean, I feel like that's a really great motivation to have from such an early age because for some people, I guess, maybe no is a bit demotivating.

But it seems like you know, it's actually been motivating for you. Yeah, so that gives us a good sense of where you're coming from.

And I know on LinkedIn, Linh, that you describe yourself as a rabble rouser. I'm very curious about that term. Can you tell us more?

Linh (00:06:29)

Yes, so I think for me that term is, how do you ensure the sass is always there? And sass queen felt a bit inappropriate for a LinkedIn title, whereas rabble rouser obviously has some alliteration as well.

As I get invited into more spaces where I have the opportunity to share my opinions, I'm constantly thinking about Well, how am I not just part of the furniture but instead, how am I here still trying to be, not disruptive just to be annoying and sort of you know, throwing spanners in the work, but how can I actually use the time, the space that I am currently taking up to do something that either continues to open up doors for other people, change the way that people are approaching things.

And I think if you're not willing to put your own foot out of line, then certainly we're never going to get there with like some of the like, broader societal changes that we need right now.

Jen (00:07:19)

Yeah, I think that's really true. And I actually really love the term rabble rouser. I mean, I think queen of sass or whatever your alternative was would also be pretty cool on LinkedIn.

But rabble rouser to me is about, yeah, I'm someone who's curious and doesn't just accept the status quo and is willing to ask the questions, which I think we need more of, right? It's essential.

Michael (00:07:40)

Yeah.

Jen (00:07:41)

So Linh, I was going through your LinkedIn profile just because that's one of my favorite things to do, checking out you know, all of the things that people have done and what's important to them.

And so I found out for you that you've got a Bachelor of Arts with majors in Politics, International Studies and Environmental Studies.

But before I knew that about you, I would have said that a lot of your work actually involves science and communicating about science.

And I just wondered, you know, science is this kind of elitist little world on its own sometimes. I'm just really interested to know, what, like how do you feel about science and how critical do you think effective science communication is if we want to change the trajectory that our, you know, our society and our planet is currently on? How big a role does science play in that, do you think?

Linh (00:08:32)

So it wasn't until I went to university, but probably even many years after that, that I realized there was such a science versus art debate and not just because you know, there are podcasts that are literally named that.

But for me, it always felt inevitable that I would have to figure out how do I bridge these barriers that sometimes people have put up that means the scientists sit to that side of the room, the communicators sit to that side of the room.

And I think that's also where the birth of science communication has really come from, is helping the important knowledge that scientists are researching or deploying in different ways actually reach people who can then do something about that, whether that's policymakers legislating things, whether it's people in business who can commercialize and scale new innovations, or whether it's like the end sort of consumer citizen who might be benefiting from that information.

So for me, it's always been a bit of that bridge. And as a result, I've never seen myself as a scientist simply 'cause I've never spent time in a lab, which is such a stereotype as well, right? 'Cause there's so many different ways, like even as I say that science can sort of manifest.

But I'm really cognizant of the silos that we like to create simply to pigeonhole people, but how that ultimately limits our ability to both understand, but then also implement any of the solutions that we know that are needed, whether it's on the climate crisis or insert any other issue that people care about.

Michael (00:09:55)

Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that's kind of like the higher level issue, right? Because the first level is the issue of the climate crisis. And then you were really thinking about, okay, how do we need to solve this from a collaborative approach?

I found it really interesting actually, the way you described that you fell in love with this issue of the climate crisis, or that you chose to fall in love with this issue of the climate crisis. Can you talk to us a little bit about what that process was like?

Linh (00:10:23)

Yes, and some of that is definitely the beauty of retrospectively being able to say certain things.

I think when I first came across the climate crisis, it was, I was terrified about the climate crisis. It was something that would keep me up at night.

But when I think about what are other things that have kept me up at night, once upon a time, it was "Harry Potter" books that I used to really love.

And I think that sort of, you know, flip between what worries you can also really make you actually obsessed in a healthy way.

One of the things for me about falling in love with the climate crisis is recognising and understanding that it's an issue that is so broad.

I could have followed the path of trying to become a renewable energy expert. I could have followed the path of trying to be the person that developed resiliency and adaptation solutions. The issue is so broad that there's so many solutions possible.

What I've noticed a lot in the work that I've done, particularly when it's been to help other people identify how they could contribute, is too quickly... People are too quick to fall in love with the solution.

And if the solution doesn't work, they still keep trying, but actually there's so many ways that we could be approaching problems that are wicked and complex and inter tangled.

So for me, the more you can understand the contours of a problem, the dynamics that have made it such, the better able you are to design interventions and also pivot when things don't work out.

So if you hear that word, "no", it's like, Okay, well, I know enough about this problem to know that I could step to the left and maybe still get to the outcome that I'm looking for. And that for me has been a really valuable approach to things. And it certainly helps keep me a lot more positive than you know, the weight and heaviness of working on such an intense issue.

Michael (00:12:04)

Yeah, that's a really great way to describe it, being flexible and recognising that there's multiple paths to go here and being flexible to you know, swap paths at any given moment. But you described it much better than me. And it's really clear that you've got some great communication skills.

I would be very curious to kind of ask you a little bit about that climate change communication and maybe what did Al Gore teach you about climate change communication? You know, how did all that come about and what did you learn?

Linh (00:12:33)

So the first thing that I will say that Al Gore taught me about communication that I did not learn through my many years of schooling is just because you might be good at something and better than you know, the immediate people in your circle does not mean you can stop working, practicing and putting in effort to continually be learning and upskilling.

One of the really greatest privileges of my life is actually getting to learn both directly and indirectly from him, but many other communicators as well.

And seeing for someone who is so captivating in a room, just how hard he still works. You know, he does not wake up every single morning going, Ah, well, I know everyone knows who I am. And I know that I'm already great at this. And let me show you my Nobel Peace Prize.Instead it's, No, I am putting in hours and hours of time and effort to ensure that I am still up to date.And I think that's something that's really important for all of us, regardless of what it is that we do.

And the Olympics recently reminded me of this as well. Sometimes people get coaches because they need extra support. Sometimes people are excellent and literally the number one in the world at what they do. And they still have coaches because they know that they possibly could be better.

Jen (00:13:39)

Was it, I don't know, like were you kind of? Not starstruck, that's kind of not what I mean.

But like was it, did you have to sort of pinch yourself to recognise that you were really learning communication skills from somebody who, as you say, not only already highly skilled, but also humble enough to realise that you can keep getting better? It must have been pretty amazing.

Linh (00:14:01)

Yeah, and it still feels so surreal. Getting to go to Antarctica with you was super surreal, just because Antarctica feels like one of those places that such a rare number and small number of people get to visit.

And I think it was really similar with the experiences that I've been able to have at Climate Reality and how that foundationally changed how I view things.

The very first time I was at a Climate Reality event, there were 150 other people in that room. In that room included big mega sports stars that I'd like seen before, celebrity gardeners, but then also people who I'd never heard of where they are that you know, that particular town where they live in, they are the go-to person.

So there was something really humbling about one, being in that room of diversity and realising that we were all capable of like excellence and contribution alongside watching someone who has perfected and honed their craft over decades and continues to do so, that was truly remarkable.

The thing that's sort of interesting is I was 16 at the time. So I was definitely still in like sass queen mode, which is to say, I thought of course I deserve to be there. Did these people not know that young people have historically been marginalised and you know, excluded from those conversations?

But it's been in the last you know, decade or so where I've had those opportunities to reflect. And when people ask me what's been really pivotal, it's those early foundational moments.

And when you get taught communication from a place of such diversity and depth, you know differently.

I learnt my communication skills, one through just like the practice of talking to a lot of different people, being exposed to lots of different audiences and not through the sort of standard public speaking 101 classes that you can do, which of course are really important to get other foundational skills there.

But that, the richness of that underpinning for me really can't be yeah, discounted.

Jen (00:15:53)

Yeah, what an amazing background in communication you've had for so many years now, which Linh leads me to really want to ask you a little bit more about what you're doing now.

Because you know, of all the things you've done, all the experiences you've had, all of the countries you've worked in, you've chosen to come back to Melbourne, which may or may not have been COVID related, I'm not sure.

But you know, you're integrally involved now with this thing called the Wattle Fellowship. Tell us what it is and why that is what you're currently devoting your, you know, your considerable skills and energy to.

Linh (00:16:28)

So I definitely came back to Melbourne because of COVID. But you know, we make lemonade from lemons and that's all A-okay.

When I studied at the University of Melbourne, never did I think I would end up being an employee of a university or a higher education institution, for a variety of reasons. I knew that my action orientation would preclude me from doing research or at least surviving the PhD process.

And that level of impatience, the you know, knowledge of how significant the climate crisis is meant that I was only ever looking to apply my skills really sort of directly.

But when this opportunity came up to join the University of Melbourne, work on what is now known as the Wattle Fellowship, I sort of immediately said yes.

The canvas that was given to me was really blank and broad, which I feel very, again, fortunate for. It was effectively, what can we do with our students around leadership and sustainability?

So to do the boring plug for what the fellowship is, is effectively over the course of a year, students from any discipline across the University of Melbourne are eligible to apply.

We end up having a group of people, 25 to 30 go through the program at any one time. They get to experience workshops, retreats, meet a lot of other experts. But importantly, they also get coaching and funding to bring about some sort of idea into life and actuality.

And I always tell our students, particularly people who are starting when they ask the question of what makes for a successful Wattle Fellow, I always say, "whatever impact that you can achieve in this one year through this opportunity to have a project, through this opportunity to learn is awesome. But actually, like what success looks like is you making the largest number of mistakes you possibly could in this one year, where there's a fair amount of you know, like safety and support. So that in three, five years time, you've had some of those opportunities to learn and do better and differently in the future."

On Clancy, who I know has taken some SciComm classes was really passionate...

Jen (00:18:22)

Yes, wonderful Clancy.

Linh (00:18:22)

Exactly. Clancy also is known as the Bee-man, which is still not something I can say very naturally, as you can tell just then.

But Clancy was doing a lot of research through his science degree around native bees already. He grew up in the country and he recognised that you know, growing up surrounded by biodiversity and nature was really important to him. Moving to Melbourne and living in an apartment was of course like a culture shock on many fronts.

So what could he be doing to introduce biodiversity into urban areas and for people that don't think of themselves as having green thumbs. So he's been both communicating about the role of native bees as pollinators, but also building bee hotels and like instructing people on how to do that.

So the projects that sort of end up coming out of the year are sort of really broad. But when you sort of take it back to, how can you have a lot of mistakes and have a lot of learning and growth from that?

One person who I will not name but I think about often is, maybe about two months into their experience, they came up to me very hesitant, very nervous and said, "Hey Linh, I just need to let you know that I actually don't think I'm a leader and maybe you accidentally picked me for this program and this program isn't for me."

And there was just something really beautiful in that because leadership for me is not about a position or a job title you have. It's about what you choose to do and how you choose to make the most of the resources and opportunities that you have.

And for this individual, through getting to experience what the Wattle Fellowship was, yes, they ended up having like a really great and interesting project. They also left the year with a sense of agency that they didn't necessarily have coming into it because for them, all the times they had heard no was really debilitating.

And instead they started to hear questions that were, "yes" and "what about?" And how that can fundamentally shift what people get out of not just this program but as a result, then their lives.

Michael (00:20:17)

Yeah.

Jen (00:20:18)

What an amazing experience.

And I just, listening to you then, I sort of felt like maybe the subtitle, it needs to be the Wattle Fellowship, AKA the Make Lots of Mistakes Fellowship.

Michael (00:20:29)

Yeah, it's quite rare, isn't it? That, that's something that's encouraged to make lots of mistakes. I guess I've been sitting here feeling very impressed by all of the things that you've been talking about Linh.

And I've written down, you know, got to check out bee hotels. That's on my bucket list now. I've never heard that term before.

But very impressed by everything you've been talking about.

And I'd really love to ask, you know, out of all of the contributions that you've made to us all having a more sustainable future, is there something that you are most proud of or something that you think has had the most impact?

Linh (00:21:06)

That's such a hard question. And actually earlier this week, I had an eight year old ask me that question too. And I think I looked at them with the same expression I have on my face now, being like, "Oh, uhh, hmm..."

One of the things that I think I'm the most proud of is pretty personal and pretty selfish, but it is for me that every day I still choose to wake up and do this.

There are a number of easier paths that I could have had in life. And I think that's true of all of us actually. And despite like the levels of struggle that currently exist within society, there's always the easy way out, whatever that looks like. Is it you know, doing 10% less, taking a shortcut. You know, relying on the goodwill and work of your group.

But for me, I know that I can go to bed at night feeling you know, happy, confident and satisfied with what I've done by putting in that effort, by committing to turning up tomorrow and being 1% better or you know, putting in 1% more effort is the thing that I'm most proud of. Because every day there is a reason to say, "Oh, yes, it's time to just like quit, retire early and go and do something else." So for me, that's something that I really hold onto.

And the reason why I've been able to do that is I get to work with such amazing people. And I get to work with people who challenged me, who helped me realise when I've made mistakes, who were kind enough and generous enough to hold me when I'm like you know, at my worst. And you know, see me [through the] other side of that. So that is something I'm really proud of.

The thing where I have created the most impact. It can be really easy to say that in many ways I actually peaked when I changed a lot of light bulbs. Never before has anything I've worked on actually led to legislative change that has been rolled out internationally as well.

So it's okay, I've just come to terms with that. It's okay to be young and think about what do you do afterwards? Reading a lot of memoirs from child actors, super helpful is what I would recommend there.

But more seriously, I think one of the things that I hope to be part of my impact is really early on in my life and career, I did this activity as part of a program, which was write your own obituary, which I think at the time being 19, I was like, Well, this is very grim, but okay.

And one of the things that often happens when you run this activity is people don't talk about the accomplishments in terms of I won this award, I got to do this many podcast interviews, I changed this many legislations. It's always how do you make people feel and how do you make people remember you?

And I hope through the work that I do now, both with Wattle, but hopefully also just in like sharing what I know, imparting that knowledge is that maybe when I die, people will say, "Oh, I really remembered that Linh gave me support in that moment in time. She really backed me when no one else did. She really challenged me when no one else".

You know, whatever that happens to be, part of being a rabble rouser is hoping that no one feels neutral about you after meeting them. I'd much rather people be like, She seems great, let's catch up again, or She was the worst and I disagree with everything she said. But that I think is the impact that I'm hoping to leave on people.

Michael (00:24:14)

Oh, well, I'm very confident that you have left that impact on lots of people already. And we're all very lucky that you do feel motivated to continue to get up every morning and keep working on these issues.

I'm noticing the time now. And before we let you go, we would like to switch gears a little bit and ask you a few quick fire questions just to round out the interview.

Michael (00:24:45)

And the first question that I would love to ask is if you could pick an alternative career to what you're doing, what would it be?

Linh (00:24:54)

Olympian, not just because the Olympics were on, but I think I'm an exceptional speed walker. It matches the speed talking.

And I like to think that had I trained diligently rather than working on a laptop to help solve the climate crisis, I would have at least qualified.

Michael (00:25:10)

Okay, you know, I think if we ever meet up in real life Linh, I would love to do some speed walking with you because, you know, it could be my hidden talent too, but you just don't know.

Linh (00:25:16)

Excellent.

Jen (00:25:21)

And I'll just watch you from afar 'cause I've got quite short legs and I would have to run to keep up with you both, but that's okay.

Okay Linh, I'm wondering if the second question is going to be connected with the first then. We'd like to know if you did get to pick a superpower, what superpower would you choose to have?

Linh (00:25:39)

Oh, I think it would actually be time travel. There's so much in history that I want to learn about.
The future seems really awesome. And I wonder if I like went to the future regularly, would the future keep changing?
So time travel would definitely be the skill.

Jen (00:25:52)

Ooh. There's a novel in that too, I'm sure.

Michael (00:25:55)

Oh, you got to love time travel. Just you know, so it's such a wonderful thing to think about, but so confusing as well. But you know, lots of possibilities there.

Okay, so this is a time travel related question that I have for you now.

Linh (00:26:10)

Excellent.

Michael (00:26:10)

So you've really set this up lovely. If you could go back in time and give yourself a message at the age of 21, what would you say to yourself?

Linh (00:26:19)

Ah, well, like life continues to be awesome.

When I was 21, I had... Sorry, I know you said short answers, but I'll speed talk my way through it.

21 was the only time when I wondered Maybe you should be doing something else. Are you only doing this because you've fallen into this pattern?

And I took a bit of time, quote unquote, off, to explore if there was more to life than climate change. Evidently there is not, and I came back to it.

But yeah, that would definitely be the message at 21 is that things will only continue to be more exciting, fulfilling, challenging, and impactful the more time and effort you put into it.

Jen (00:26:56)

That's an awesome answer. I hope you find a way to travel back in time and tell yourself that. I think that would be a really great thing to hear from your future self.

Linh (00:27:04)

I could roast myself at my 21st, it'd be great.

Jen (00:27:07)

Yeah, 100%.

Linh (00:27:07)

You know, many opportunities.

Jen (00:27:08)

Linh, given that you and I've both been involved in a leadership program, I can't resist but ask you, what do you think makes a good leader?

Linh (00:27:20)

Someone who is true to themselves and able to help others do that as well.
Like help others be true to who they are in whatever context it is that they're turning up in.

Michael (00:27:32)

Yeah.

Jen (00:27:32)

Awesome, I love it.

Michael (00:27:34)

Great answer. Yeah, I mean, it's really evident to me that you are being true to yourself. So you know, that really resonates.

And final question then that I'd love to ask is, you've done a lot of communication and I would love to know, what is your very top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Linh (00:27:53)

Ooh, about science. The greater that you understand the complexity of the scientific area that you are in, the better able you will be to explain that to a five year old.

And not that, you know, five-year-olds aren't intelligent. In fact, they are so intelligent and they are so curious. And I often keep that in my mind.

If I can't explain to a small human what it is that I am doing, then I need to keep working on understanding whatever it is I'm trying to communicate. That would be my top tip.

My second top tip though sorry, because I think I get to have two, is you have to listen. If you're not listening, then you will not understand how it is you need to either like craft or shift your message, shift your tone, potentially even replace yourself as the messenger.

But by listening, it opens up a whole bunch of clues as to what is it that this person needs to hear in order for them to be open to thinking differently about insert whatever.

Jen (00:28:50)

Yes, beautifully said.
And I think it's highly reasonable that you got to give us two tips. I think you've earned that.

Linh (00:28:58)

Thank you.

Jen (00:28:58)

...All of the things that you've done.

And Linh, it's been a massive pleasure for us to listen to you today.

Given all the things you have going on, I'm massively grateful to you that you've made time to speak with us today. There's all sorts of other things I was going to ask you about.

Somewhere I read that you're a massive fan of fairy bread. I thought probably we should explore that, but that'll just have to happen on another day, I think. Unless you have a really quick takeaway for us about why fairy bread is so good.

Linh (00:29:22)

Nostalgia. Like who doesn't like fairy bread?  I mean, I have met people who don't like fairy bread and they get added to a list, but it's a pretty short list.

So... You ever meet me in person and you bring me fairy bread, we'll probably be instant friends.

Jen (00:29:36)

Okay, excellent. Well, I look forward to the next time we get to catch up in person. I will endeavor to bring you some fairy bread.

And in the meantime, I'll just say a huge thank you for chatting with us today.

Linh (00:29:47)

You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on.

Michael (00:29:49)

It's been a pleasure.
Thanks so much, Linh.

Jen (00:30:12)

Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm from the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I'm Associate Professor Jen Martin and my brilliant cohost is Dr Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:30:26)

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So if you enjoy listening, we would love you to tell a friend, but we'd also love you to think about taking a couple of minutes to write us a review.

Whatever platform you listen on, there will be a place for you to leave a review. And we're going to keep track and award our favourite reviewees some prizes.

We're thinking about some merch. And we'd also love to reward our favourite review with a free science communication workshop that we will run for you in person or online, depending on whereabouts you are.

Michael (00:31:16)

Ooh, prizes. And if... They sound great. And if you'd like to get in touch to suggest a guest or a future topic, we'd love to hear from you. Please email us at lets.talk.scicomm@gmail.com. And as always, a huge thank you to our production team Stephanie Wong and Steven Tang.