Episode 97 - Interview with wildlife scientist and science communicator Dr Vanessa Pirotta

Transcript

Jen (00:00:21)

Hello, everybody. It is so wonderful to welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm, my favorite place to be, particularly 'cause I get to hang out with my very good friend and colleague, Michael.

Good morning, Michael.

Michael (00:00:36)

G'day, Jen. How are you doing?

Jen (00:00:38)

G'day. I love it.
It's always a good day when you attempt your g'day.

Michael (00:00:42)

That's it.

Jen (00:00:42)

You know it's gonna be a good episode.

Jen (00:00:47)

So, Michael, today, we are really blessed today. I am super, I mean, I know I'm excited about all our guests.

But like today, I am super, super excited to have the opportunity to chat with Dr. Vanessa Pirotta. And look, Vanessa's someone that I admired from afar for quite a long time. She's very visible online. A lot of people might've heard her or seen her. And I was one of her admirers.

But then I finally got to hang out with her in person earlier this year at this year's Eureka Awards in Sydney. And it didn't surprise me at all that we got along like a house on fire. And I wish we could have hung out more. It was a shame we had to sit down and listen to all these important people talking rather than just hanging out.

So, Vanessa is a really... very successful scientist, but I guess the reason that I'm so excited to speak with her is because she's also an incredible science communicator.

And I just think everyone who comes into her orbit and interacts with her benefits from her intelligence and her passion and her connection with both wildlife and people.

So you know, there's a long list, Michael. She's a wildlife biologist. She's very passionate, particularly about whales. And she's especially well-known for doing some really funky things like using drones to collect whale snot. And yes, everyone, we [are] going to talk more about this shortly. Also using AI and computer algorithms to try and detect illegal wildlife trafficking, which is pretty cool.

She's the lead scientist of a scientific and citizen science program called Wild Sydney Harbour. And she also really prioritises working with local indigenous rangers, learning more about whales and dolphins and fur seals.

So in terms of qualifications, Vanessa completed her PhD at Macquarie University in Marine Sciences not that long ago, actually, 2018.

But in terms of communication, there's a really, really long list. I could talk for a long time about all the wonderful things she's done and doing. She's a TEDx speaker. She represented Australia at FameLab internationally and was the international runner-up in 2018.

She's written three books, just you know, in your spare time, as you do.

Michael (00:02:59)

Yeah.

Jen (00:03:00)

"Humpback Highway", which is for teens and adults. And then two children's books, "Oceans at Night" and "The Voyage of Whale and Calf". You're kind of getting the whale theme here.

She's done heaps of TV. You've probably seen her at some point talking about whales on News Breakfast or a variety of other places.

She also recently hosted the Prime Minister's Prizes for Science. A few nice snaps there of her with our current PM, which is pretty fancy.

She's won a heap of awards. Very recently, she was honoured as the Women's Agenda Emerging Leader in Science. She was included by the Australian Financial Review as one of the top 100 women of influence in 2019.

I hope you're really blushing now, Vanessa. She's one of Australia's superstars of STEM.

And as I said, she was a finalist for this year's Australian Museum Eureka Prize for Promoting and Understanding of Science, which is why I got to hang out with her.

Vanessa, I could keep going. You've done a lot of amazing stuff, but I won't, 'cause then we wouldn't get to talk with you and that would just be silly. And I don't want to be silly.

But I'll just say thanks for making the time. We are so happy to have you here on Let's Talk SciComm.

Vanessa (00:04:06)

Thank you so much. I am so impressed with your research to delve into all my things. And I didn't even contemplate all those things together. So thank you so much. I was also very teary in that lovely introduction because it's so kind of you.

And I just want to say thank you both for the wonderful platform that you have here to help facilitate us to the world. So thank you.

Michael (00:04:27)

Oh, it's a pleasure to have you, Vanessa.

And I'm very excited. I think we're going to have a whale of a time.

Vanessa (00:04:34)

I love it.

Michael (00:04:36)

Why is that a saying?

Vanessa (00:04:38)

Maybe because whales are so happy. Well, it appears to be happy. Jumping out, frolicking is always the fun term. But I'm sure you said that on porpoise. Did you?

Michael (00:04:48)

Touche, touche.

Jen (00:04:50)

I feel like I might just need to be quiet here. I'm not very good at puns.
I might just sit back and listen to you two, okay?

Michael (00:04:57)

The fun podcast.

Vanessa (00:04:57)

Very fun already.

Michael (00:04:59)

I really want to know more about whale snot.

But yeah, well, look, let's into the chat then, Vanessa.

Jen (00:05:06)

So Vanessa, we will come to whale snot soon.

But before we talk about whale snot, I think I’ve just got to ask the most obvious question first. And that is, why whales? At what point did you fall in love with the ocean and whales?

Because really that's defined what you've done, or at least what I've seen of what you've done.

Vanessa (00:05:24)

It really has. And that's what was so much of a shock to me because I grew up never ever ever thinking I'd be a scientist, honestly.

Ever since I was a little girl growing up on a farm outside of Canberra, I was always fascinated by whales in books. And I always say this, but the internet wasn't back around when I was little. Don't freak out, younger generation listening.

But we had books and I was looking at whales and looking at the, what bit was sticking out. And I just thought they were the coolest things.

And then the movie Free Willy came out. And then I was always just wanting to be a dolphin trainer. And it's probably because these creatures were so far out of sight, but never out of mind for me.

So it was curiosity from a young age. And the joys of science led me down beyond becoming a dolphin trainer to things that I would never have thought possible.

Michael (00:06:14)

Yeah, wow.
I mean, and one thing that I never thought was possible was the idea that whales have snot.

Vanessa (00:06:22)

Yes, yes.

Michael (00:06:23)

So you've done a TEDx talk about this, about what does whale snot tell us about whales and the oceans?

So I presume whales really do have snot and that it gives us some useful information and it's worth understanding more about.

Vanessa (00:06:39)

Yes. So as we're all listening to us here, whether you're on the way to work, uni, taking a break from whatever you're doing, eating breakfast, you're doing something that whales around the world are doing right now. You're breathing. Now, some whales are taking turns to breathe, (whale breathing), like that, because they breathe air like you and I.

So humpback whales in particular have two nostrils. And if you're picking your nose right now, probably shouldn't. But the one to the right, one to the left and their nostrils are now, if you run your hand up past your forehead on top of your head, that's where a whale's nostrils are.

They have two of them. And when they do that sound, so that (whale breathing) sound, that's the kind of like, I've just run a race, I'm breathing out and then I'm taking in oxygen. They are mammals like you and I. So that's key to know. But when they exhale, there's juicy biological data that is coming out from those nostrils.

And as a scientist during my PhD, I was wanting to find ways that we could access these creatures because they're not like a dog or a cat. You can't take them to a vet, ask for a blood sample.

No, we're talking about an animal the size of a bus, 15 meters or so, 40,000 kilograms in weight. They're not going to do that.

And fortunately at the time, drones were evolving, literally taking flight to the skies, lifting up everyone's research, whatever it may be. And that was a beautiful parallel that I was working with drone operators.

It became this beautiful visual and STEAM was echoed through my work, which is Science, Technology, Engineering and Art and Maths, where we combined the use of innovative technologies to collect the biological sample that is whale snot, which in other words is whale microbiota.

But back then, I mean, whale microbiota, a lot of you might go, whoof, what is that? And we want to make science accessible. So by saying whale snot, people know what a whale is and we all have snot.

So by learning more about whale snot, we can collect information about their internal health. But also what's going on in the ocean as well at a microscopic level, such as the creatures, the bugs that are living in Antarctica, viruses, so many things we can learn about by looking internally of a whale and then using photos as well.

So it's just a small piece of the puzzle, but one where we can gain so much more knowledge about these fascinating creatures.

Michael (00:08:57)

Wow.

Jen (00:09:08)

And has that word been really useful, Vanessa?

Like the day you kind of went, Hang on, let's just call it snot. Was that an eye-opening moment for you to realise that suddenly people were interested in whales when maybe they wouldn't have been otherwise?

Vanessa (00:09:23)

I think it was a turning point. And the reason being is because a lot of the media were coming to me and I was a junior scientist.

Before I would, if a media place would come and ask, you know, what is it Vanessa, what are you doing? And I would have to think about asking my supervisor before I gave the interview. I mean, surely I was qualified to do that. I just didn't know back then.

But telling them about whale microbiota or lung bacteria, it was just not, you could see their faces, they were going... And then when I said whale snot, they lit up. People would light up and I love that. And that was that changing moment.

And someone once said to me, "You've got to be careful because you become known as the whale snot woman."

And I have now, and I actually don't mind it. And it's fine because if it means that science is being transferred in ways where people can go, These people are collecting small organisms from one of the biggest animals on earth through something I can relate to. Isn't that great?

Jen (00:10:17)

I think that's a cool thing to be known as.
I think you should introduce yourself. "Hi, I'm Vanessa, the whale snot woman." It's pretty cool.

Vanessa (00:10:24)

The amount of times people have said that and it's like oh, they're like "Oh, you're the whale snot woman. Oh, great." It's branding.

Michael (00:10:31)

Vanessa, do you ever come across a whale that has a cold?
And like, what if its nose is blocked?

Vanessa (00:10:37)

Well, that's a great question. And if we think back to Seinfeld, this is maybe over your demographic but you know, the golf ball, the marine biologist episode, it... something could get stuck in there.

But in terms of snot, when we sample whales, I'm fortunate because we're sampling whales that are relatively healthy. Now there are some whales that may strand and we don't know why, but often it's associated with ill health.

And I personally have not seen like the goobies, the juiciness that we might have when we've got a cold or a flu present in their blowhole and to what degree it inhibits their ability to breathe. So these are all things that I'm still learning more about. If whales get colds like you and I, possibly.

But what we do know is that they do have viruses and we were the first in the world to collect whale viruses via drones. And the first in the world to create flip-lid Petri dishes, which is a beautiful way of thinking of a drone. It launches from the back of the boat, carrying a Petri dish, which is this circular dish that can fit in the palm of your hand. It's plastic and it has a lid and it fits on the top of the drone.

When a whale is seen, my drone pilot Alastair Smith from Heliguy Scientific is flying the drone, because these drones are purpose-built for what we've got to do. I can't fly them.

Michael (00:11:53)

Oh wow.

Vanessa (00:11:54)

Yeah, they're all manually operated and, but this is why collaboration is so beautiful. And then you see a whale in the distance, (air noises), different whales breathing. The drone flies out to the whale's position.

The drone can then see where the whales are. It pinpoints one whale. And then as the whale comes up to take a breath, that (air noises), the drone dips down, opens that Petri dish, and then goes (farting noise) through the snot.

It doesn't fart, but that's the kind of sound of the goobies going on the drone. And then the drone lid shuts (clap), and then the drone (drone noises), comes back to the boat and lands, and we collect the sample.

Michael (00:12:29)

Hmm, wow.

Jen (00:12:30)

It's so cool. It's really cool. What's just happened here Vanessa, is really cool on two levels.

One, 'cause we've learned how you do a really nifty, amazing, fun piece of science.

But two, you've just demonstrated why we wanted to speak to you because we've just heard you communicate some really interesting science. It's such a fun, interesting, accessible way.

And yeah, I guess I want to know, you know, you're so good at it. Your passion, your ability to engage people, your ability to explain things clearly. You're so damn good at it.

So I'm interested firstly in what drives you to do it, because we know most scientists don't see it as a priority or don't invest the significant time and energy that you do in communicating with different audiences.

But I guess my cheeky second question is, have you always been good at this? Have you always found writing and speaking to be something you can do well and that you're good at? Or have you had to work really hard to become the communicator that you are?

Vanessa (00:13:24)

This is so refreshing that you ask this question because it's nice for me to personally reflect on this.

For those listening, I guess it was, so I never was a very good writer. And as a scientist, you need to be quite good at English, I would say, 'cause writing is a brilliant skill that I've had to work hard at.

But when it comes to presenting, I can recall in primary school presenting, presenting and talking. And then I worked at a zoo during my undergraduate studies in Canberra, the National Zoo and Aquarium. And I had to give tours, and I was speaking and doing keeper talks.

But the thing that works... the parallel with speaking here is I was talking about the things I loved. So telling people Sumatran tigers are one of the most endangered tiger species in the world because of habitat loss.

Connecting across intergenerations, the intergenerational knowledge transfer is so important to me. So whenever I've had to talk at the zoo, and then when I became a dolphin and sea lion trainer, I would be presenting shows to grandparents, to young two-year-olds. Making that information accessible to all of these people at one time is important.

So I guess, again, talking about the things I love, talking about things I love, sharing information. It's, I never grew up thinking that I was going to become a science communicator. It was only during my PhD where people were asking me about what it was I was doing that I realised that I kind of had to talk about this stuff.

There was no science communication courses when I was in my university training. None of this existed. So for students now to have an entire course dedicated on how to share science is my idea of heaven because you can take this transferable skill wherever you go.

Look at politicians. Most of their time, they talk to people because they need people to vote for them. They need people to understand what they do. It's very important.

So in order to address your question, talking about what I love has driven what I do. Making it accessible to people is also very important. Being a trainer as well, I was a puppy, RSPCA puppy school trainer as well.

I will, like a, you can go teach your dogs, but it's actually a lot about teaching your, how to train a dog, right? So teaching people how to understand methods of positive reinforcement, that kind of stuff encouraged me to speak a certain way that's relatable and that's so important.

And it's a way forward, I think, that everyone can identify. And I acknowledge that some people don't like speaking in front of people and that's fine. But for me, it was definitely that underlying route from childhood now into adulthood.

Michael (00:16:14)

Yeah, it's fascinating to hear you speak about that, you know, especially that idea of intergenerational knowledge transfer.

When did you realise that that was so important?

I mean, I guess you were giving these talks to grandparents and kids and I'm just thinking about it now and thinking, Well, maybe they'll go home and they will talk about that because they've both received the same information.

And I'm wondering whether that intergenerational knowledge transfer is something you, you know, try to achieve through your books as well.

Vanessa (00:16:41)

Yes.

Michael (00:16:42)

And interesting that you said that you were never any good at writing, but you've written all these amazing books.

So yeah, I'm just curious to hear more about that, what you're trying to achieve and what the process was like.

Vanessa (00:16:53)

Well, thank you so much. And the idea, so for those recap, I've got two children's books and then a hybrid book for both teens and adults. And it's very much just that, transferring information and making it accessible.

So a lot of people are asking, and I used to work as a naturalist on a whale watching boat. That's like a guide on the boat saying, "This is a whale, it's farting or it's breathing, whatever". And people didn't really know why the whales are in Australian waters.

So I thought, I'm going to write a story about that for children, but secretly for those reading the book.

Michael (00:17:27)

Yeah.

Vanessa (00:17:28)

Because the adults are taking in the information, right? And if I want that book to be read by grandparents, they should know about this too. The more we know, the more we're informed, the better decisions collectively we can make for our blue backyard.

And then the book Humpback Highway was basically the voyage of whale and calf on steroids. Which is, so now I can also share that journey of what it's like to be a scientist, to get snot on you, which I would not encourage because there are viruses.

And what it's like to... When I started writing that book, it was very much a journey, but it was a journey while I was a mother in science as well. So when I was writing about whales being mothers, I was pregnant at the time too. And I was like, Wow, my perspective has totally changed here. I'm going to try and make this book for those who may be [a bit wise] or who have been mums and then there's that relatability.So it's all about getting the information, packaging it up in different platforms. And my books are just one. And obviously there's social media, but then there's TV.

And again, I take those skillsets from when I was working at the zoo, marine facilities, and thinking about from grandparents to two-year-olds, that kind of thing.

Jen (00:18:43)

It's interesting you bring up TV 'cause it's something that was on my list that I really want to ask you about, Vanessa. And that is Play School. I mean, surely that is every science communicator's top dream, to be asked to be on Play School.

Anyone listening who doesn't know play school, here in Australia, it's... I don't know how many decades it's been around for, a really long time.

Vanessa (00:19:04)

I think 60.

Jen (00:19:04)

Must be what?

Vanessa (00:19:05)

60 years, sorry.

Jen (00:19:05)

Yeah, 60-odd years, yeah.

Michael (00:19:06)

Well I've actually never seen it, so I'm listening.

Jen (00:19:10)

So it's a highly entertaining, but educational show for preschool-aged children. Children who grew up here Michael certainly would be aware of it. And it really is a dream because it gives you a huge platform to interact with children.

You’ve got to tell us Vanessa, like how did it come about? What did you learn about TV in the process? What did you learn about communicating with kids in the process?

Fill us in, as someone who I'm pretty sure will never be on Play School, I want to live vicariously through you.

Vanessa (00:19:40)

Well, you never know, Jen.

So one of the reasons I was asked onto Play School is because the people watching Play School watched the news. And so they saw this probably crazy person talking about whales and voila, right?

There was a Down at the Beach episode/series, where they were trying to encourage students to learn more about how they can make a difference.

And one of the great things about Play School is it is so thoroughly researched. It's not just an episode that goes on and it's done. We're talking months in the making to the script writing, to making sure the visuals correspond with what is spoken about.

And for me, the opportunity to talk about what we do as scientists, making sure we keep the beach clean and why. So students, young minds, and their... And it's basically like my books, it's for big kids as well watching. Because I find myself watching Play School as a mother as well. Because I'm loving it. The information is so accessible.

It's just, for me, the whole idea of Play School is very visual. It's very stimulating visually. It's colorful. And it's also a brilliant example of science communication. I would say that students, you should probably watch an episode of Play School just to see how they share knowledge.

And for me, it was digesting the talking about whale snot through visuals. I took in my big fins to show students how we swim underwater with whales, mask, kind of all these different aspects. And I took in Winston, my humpback whale, who's in the corner over there. A prop, which was also very visual to tell young minds that whales have two nostrils and they breathe air, that basic biology.

And then the fundamental end of that was, please don't release your balloons into the air because what goes up comes down. And again, that's for big kids to know that too.

It was, Jen, it was just the most amazing experience, one that I will hold dearly. And for those Australians listening, I got to meet Daisy the cow.

Michael (00:21:37)

Oh, wow.

Jen (00:21:38)

Oh my gosh. That's amazing.

Vanessa (00:21:40)

Which is a purple toy.

Jen (00:21:42)

And so Vanessa, like, did you have to follow an exact script or were you allowed to just kind of talk?

Vanessa (00:21:48)

I thought they were joking when there was a script and I thought, Oh yeah, we'd be fine. And no, there is no autocue. You need to learn the script.

And the presenters are doing a phenomenal job. But yes, you need to learn the script. And also there was an opportunity for me to work with the team to ensure that what was written, that I was able to mold that to what would be appropriately represented in the scientific world correctly.

Like I said, these episodes are very thoroughly investigated and the most amazing thing is for any of you listeners around the world, is that Australia provides this free, for anyone in Australia, regardless of your economic background.

Which means that students, young minds, have access to educational resources like this, which is one of the most beautiful gifts that we as Australians can provide to our young next generation.

Jen (00:22:43)

Absolutely. Well, I just think it is super, super cool that you got to do that.

And surely they're going to invite you back to become like a regular co-host or something. You're so good.

Vanessa (00:22:52)

Thank you. It would be a dream.

And the reason is, again, go back to what I was saying, merging my passion with talking about it. So for me, it's just a beautiful combination of things.

Jen (00:23:04)

One of our closest colleagues, Catriona, anyone who listens to this podcast will have heard many times. We work with Cat. She's absolutely fabulous. She's now known as the singing scientist,

But when she was growing up, she said she couldn't choose between two careers, whether to be a doctor or a play school presenter.

They were like two career paths and she's ended up being a science communicator, which is a pretty good mix of both, really.

Vanessa (00:23:27)

And I love that you mentioned that because you know how year 12 usually has the book of "most likely to be".

Jen (00:23:33)

Yeah

Vanessa (00:23:34)

I was put down as most likely to be on Play School.

Jen (00:23:36)

Oh, wow.

Jen (00:23:36)

Oh, yay.

Vanessa (00:23:37)

And I will point out if you go on Play School, and I never in a million years would have thought it would happen, but you get to sing as well.

So I was singing with my children and I scuttled like a crab, which was a career high line. So there's a lot of singing and most importantly, I made whale sounds. So...

Jen (00:23:55)

So good.

Vanessa (00:23:55)

Sometimes the whale sound like the (whale sounds) and then sometimes in the creaky door, which is like that (whale sounds) and I can do all sounds if you need to.

Michael (00:24:07)

Yeah.

Jen (00:24:08)

Why didn't they get you to be Dory on Finding Nemo?  
I mean really, you're clearly the perfect person.

Vanessa (00:24:14)

I just don't... See that's the other thing as a scientist, we're really dorky. Sometimes we're over in one place. We don't have that platform.

And I know we're just talking about Play School, but that international platform, the opportunity to be present is something that I personally struggle with.

And it's just, we need the world of opportunity. So be it podcasts, TV, books, any opportunity is a brewing thing because we must seize that because you never know where it may lead you.

Michael (00:24:42)

So just, kind of following up on that, all of those you know, opportunities that are out there. And I guess you've done a lot of examples of great science communication from you know, TV to books, to being a TEDx speaker.

Which one do you think is the one that you've been able to have most impact through? And I know it's hard to really know what the impact can be. You know, you don't know who's watching that TV show or you don't necessarily know who's reading the book.

But you know, do you have a sense from all of the science communication activities that you've done, which one is having most impact? Or is there something else that you're planning to do in the future that you haven't quite done yet?

Vanessa (00:25:23)

I love this question. And I know the answer to it, at least at this stage of my life.

So for young kids, social media is where I'm having the impact. I was told just last week that my Instagram is highly followed by ages 12 to 17.

Jen (00:25:42)

That's awesome.

Vanessa (00:25:44)

Because the teacher told me that. He was like, "you don't understand how many people are watching what you're putting out". And for me, that was just so important because I deliberately put out things to encourage students to see what it's like to be scientists, collaborate. So social media, I never in a million years would have thought that.

Then for the older demographic, it's TV and radio. Because people will watch TV. So for example, I had a 7.30, which is a very prestige current affairs program here in Australia, which is a nightly one. So I had my new research talking about a largely unknown whale species in Australian waters. The Bryde's whale was placed there, which is just brilliant.

And then also radio. Radio is where a lot of... An older demographic is maybe on route to work, that kind of thing. And they're listening and they're learning. And on the way to work or on the way home, that's where I found I've had the biggest impact, which is incredible. And I've even had politicians email me, congratulating me on my work.

And that is so nice. In fact, sometimes I think they're fake or someone pretending to be them. But there's been such beautiful connections where it's been reinforcing to go, Oh my gosh, this is really brilliant. I'm so glad I took that time to dedicate that to communicating the science that could potentially be locked away for years in a journal, to now bringing that to make [it] accessible, to directly inform policy, biological important area designing to accommodate whale species we know very little about. It's an amazing thing and it's very rewarding.

Michael (00:27:23)

Yeah, wow. I mean, it just really speaks to the value of science communication, doesn't it?

I guess a lot of those politicians, they're not going to be reading academic journals. And if you're able to reach them through you know, being on the radio, then that's great impact.

Vanessa (00:27:36)

Exactly. And that is why when you're listening to this, you need to think people consume information differently.

Be present for all those... Well, at least if you can try, all those different opportunities, different platforms, because you never know.

You could change the course of someone's career path or you can inform how we look after our creatures in our blue backyard. The opportunities are endless.

Jen (00:28:03)

Hear, hear.

Michael (00:28:04)

Hear, hear.

You know, I feel like this conversation could be endless, Vanessa, but we are getting to that stage in the podcast now where we would like to shift gears a little bit. And we would like to ask some quick questions just to round out the interview.

So quick questions, quick answers.

Michael (00:28:30)

The first one that I would like to ask is, if you like, if you could pick an alternative career path to the one that you're currently on, what would it be?

Vanessa (00:28:40)

I think it would be a doctor.
So then I could help my family and work out what's wrong with my kids all the time.

Michael (00:28:44)

Yeah. Or you could also have the curse of too much knowledge as well.

Vanessa (00:28:48)

True. Or potentially a politician, maybe.
Because I'd like to be able to help people. But I'd never become a politician, just putting that out.

Jen (00:28:54)

I was going to say, you've got plenty of time Vanessa.

Vanessa (00:28:58)

No...

Michael (00:28:59)

You never know.
There might be two future careers there for you.

Vanessa (00:29:03)

Thank you.

Jen (00:29:05)

Okay. Our next question is, if you were able to choose to have a superpower, what superpower would you choose?

Vanessa (00:29:13)

To fly. That's the first thing that came to mind.

Michael (00:29:15)

Yeah.

Jen (00:29:16)

You wouldn't need a drone, right?

Michael (00:29:18)

You could collect the snot yourself.

Vanessa (00:29:16)

So... When I'm talking about superpower, like I know people might think of it different ways.

But that is the first thing that comes to mind, being able to fly and not be afraid of it. Just enjoying and understand the world from another lens.

Michael (00:29:30)

Yeah, wow. That would be great. I want to fly too.

If you could go back and give yourself a message at the age of 21, what would you say?

Vanessa (00:29:39)

Don't sweat the small stuff. Stay in your lane.

You are on the right path. You got this.

Michael (00:29:45)

Yep.

Jen (00:29:46)

Can I get a tattoo that says that? I'm 50 now, but I think that's a pretty good, I think that's a pretty good thing for us to remember at all ages, right?

Vanessa (00:29:56)

It is, and be patient, because I'm one of these people who wants to... And I will just be open about this. This is not a bad thing.

My mother died at a very young age when I was 22. And she did so much in her life, and I want to have the opportunities as well.

She's inspired me, and so she's inspired the opportunity to just go forth and enjoy the world. So it's not a negative, it's a beautiful positive. So please take that with you.

Jen (00:30:23)

Yeah, well, I'm very sorry about your Mum.

But I'm sure that you are honouring her every minute of the day by living the life that you're living.

Vanessa (00:30:31)

Thank you.
Yeah, it's very special.

Jen (00:30:34)

So Vanessa, you recently won a very prestigious award as an emerging leader in science. So I would like to know, what do you think makes a good leader?

Vanessa (00:30:45)

A good... Thank you very much.

A really good leader is someone who goes above and beyond in terms of navigating things a different way to what you've been taught.

So it's good to stick to the rules. But the relationships I have with First Nation knowledge holders is very much a genuine one that I built through friendship.

And now I'm mentoring these young First Nation Rangers to do amazing things for their community, which they are doing, by lifting them up.

So for me, it's all about thinking outside that box, bringing people along with you on the journey, and creating opportunities in ways that you have not seen possible yet.

Don't wait for funding. Go forward before the funding happens, otherwise it won't happen. And what you'll be set up with is the most incredible thing.

I've got so many different exciting projects right now that are happening. And it's because I took that chance to build good relationships.

And I wanted to be present from a grassroots level upwards to show my peers, to also show that next generation, this is how you can do things for the better.

Jen (00:31:57)

Beautiful.

Vanessa (00:31:59)

Thank you.

Michael (00:31:59)

Very well said. And I'm very excited to hear about those projects when they come to fruition.

The last question that we'd like to ask Vanessa is, what would be your very top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Vanessa (00:32:13)

Think about your project as if you're talking about it to your grandparents. Like honestly, not dumbing it down, you just want to package it nicely so it's relatable.

And if you go, "No, I don't work on whales or whale snot." That's okay.

There is something in your research that you can make relatable to people. Find it, find [out] how to work out what it is and how that's relatable and use that going forward.

Jen (00:32:42)

That is excellent, excellent advice.

And I'm sure everyone listening can kind of go, Oh yeah, I don't work on whale snot. And you know, I'm not that cool, but I work on, I can do that with as well.

So yeah, thank you Vanessa. And again, just huge thanks for making the time. We know you are crazy busy.

As [you've just] said, you have so many fantastic projects going on and I just can't wait to see all of the things that you are doing and that you are gonna continue to do.

Yeah, there could be a million amazing things in your future and we can't wait to see what they are and to invite you back on the podcast to hear more about them.

So thank you, thank you for chatting with us. It's been such a pleasure.

Vanessa (00:33:25)

And thank you so much for providing this beautiful platform for us to share knowledge.
So thank you very much.

Michael (00:33:31)

Thanks, Vanessa.
Been a pleasure chatting with you.

Jen (00:33:53)

Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm from the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I'm Associate Professor Jen Martin and my brilliant cohost is Dr Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:34:07)

And if you've enjoyed listening to this episode, we'd love you to share it with your friends and family. We'd love you to share your favourite episode online. And you can find us at LetsTalkSciComm on X, formerly known as Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Jen (00:34:21)

And this season, we are asking for your help to spread the word so that more people find out about our podcast.

So if you enjoy listening, we would love you to tell a friend, but we'd also love you to think about taking a couple of minutes to write us a review.

Whatever platform you listen on, there will be a place for you to leave a review. And we're going to keep track and award our favourite reviewees some prizes.

We're thinking about some merch. And we'd also love to reward our favourite review with a free science communication workshop that we will run for you in person or online, depending on whereabouts you are.

Michael (00:34:57)

Ooh, prizes. And if... They sound great. And if you'd like to get in touch to suggest a guest or a future topic, we'd love to hear from you. Please email us at lets.talk.scicomm@gmail.com. And as always, a huge thank you to our production team Stephanie Wong and Steven Tang.