Episode 113 - Interview with Communications and Partnerships Manager, Troy Beer

Transcript

Jen (00:00:18)

Hello everybody. It's Jen and I am so pleased to once again welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm, where I get to hang out with one of my very favourite people, Dr Michael Wheeler. Good morning, Michael.

Michael (00:00:31)

Good morning, Jen. Fancy seeing you here.

Jen (00:00:35)

Fancy! How did you find your way into this recording studio?

Michael (00:00:38)

Yeah, I just, I was just... Happened to be walking past, and here you are.

Jen (00:00:44)

Well, you're going to be very pleased that you are here today because you're about to meet one of my other very favourite people. So I'm pleased to introduce you to a very highly respected and highly capable communications manager and communications strategist, Troy Beer, who I met as a result of some work that I've done over the last couple of years with The Wilderness Society.

And when I asked Troy if he would come onto the podcast, he was a little bit reluctant and said that he didn't know that he was quite right to be a guest on this show, to which I said, "Don't be ridiculous Troy, you're a legend. And we really want to speak with you".

And as a result, I've now found out all sorts of new things about Troy. Because as you're going to hear from him in a minute, he doesn't think that the story should ever be about him. So it's actually quite hard to find out about Troy when you search for him online.

'Cause Michael, you and I spend a lot of time searching for information about our guests online. We like to make sure we know a bit about their background. We like to be able to think carefully about the questions that would be good to ask.

In Troy's case, it's really hard to find out very much about him. And I've only just found out that he actually has a background in speech therapy, which I'm very intrigued by, given the other work that he's ended up doing. But one of the reasons why I'm really interested to talk with Troy is because yes, he does have a background in science, but then he went on to then get training in communication. So he is absolutely someone with a STEM background, but then also with a professional communications training.

So he's got a postgraduate diploma in Electronic Arts Multimedia from the Australian National University. And he has used this communications expertise to work with a variety of what I think of as science-related organisations.

So I did manage to find out on LinkedIn that Troy has worked for NPS MedicineWise, the Cancer Institute New South Wales, The Wilderness Society where I met him, and he's now currently working for the UNSW, so University of New South Wales Centre for Sustainable Development Reform.

And Troy's been responsible for a whole heap of really impactful communications campaigns, programs. He's done all sorts of things. You know, think social media, think writing, think anything you could imagine as a way of communicating important scientific information to different audiences.

So Troy, you definitely belong here. We are very excited to learn from you, and thank you for making the time, because I know you are a busy man.

Troy (00:03:25)

Thanks Jen. Thanks for all those kind words too.

I think I didn't feel like I was a science communicator necessarily, or just a communicator more broadly. But yeah, I do have a science background way back somewhere.

Michael (00:03:42)

Yeah. I think it's, you've got a really interesting background, and it really just goes to show that there are so many different types of science communicators out there.

Jen (00:03:53)

So Troy, can we start by going back a bit then? I'm interested in Troy, who's just finishing up high school. What were you interested in? How did you find your way into science? At what point did that become an interest in communications?

You know, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, did Troy know these are the things I'm interested in, these are the things I want to do? Or like so many of us, was it a bit more of a winding path that got you to what you're doing?

Troy (00:04:21)

Yes. Let's just say it's a winding path, Jen.

Warning...

Jen (00:04:27)

Please describe some of those winds.

Troy (00:04:29)

Yeah, warning. This is not the fastest way to get your career to a point.

I actually, I'm just trying to think back to when I started university. I actually started, I was accepted into a horticultural degree.

Jen (00:04:46)

Ahh, cool.

Troy (00:04:46)

And then decided I didn't want to do that, I wanted to do health science. So that's when I went to speech pathology.

And I actually did that for quite a while. Then at that time, I started to get interested in online learning and those types of things. And that's when I began, I suppose, to pivot to more communications kind of work.

Jen (00:05:18)

And what was it that took you into speech pathology, like horticulture/ speech pathology? They're quite different things.

Troy (00:05:25)

I didn't even take up the horticultural degree, I just turned that down and then went straight into there. But I must have had, I suppose I threw that in, because I must have had some idea that I wanted to do something sciencey in there, right from the beginning.

I think it was... I liked the communication aspect of it, and I liked the helping people aspect of it. I think were probably the two things that really grabbed me, which is probably indicative of you know, finishing up in communications and that type of thing.

But I think after a while of doing it and certainly, the research unit I worked in was excellent fun at the time. They're doing really good research on childhood stuttering and those type of things.

But probably, and I don't even know whether it was a function of my age at the time, but being able to have that level of focus on a particular topic and really, you know, dig deep, keep digging down into it, I just didn't think I had that in me. There were too many other things to read and look at and those type of things.

Jen (00:06:40)

It's amazing how many people who end up kind of working in the communication space, it's because they decide that they're just interested in too many topics, and they can't limit themselves to thinking or reading or being involved with one thing and actually, they just want to be involved with a huge range of different things. And communication is a really effective way of doing that, isn't it?

Troy (00:07:01)

Yeah. And, you know, that's one of the things I love about my job now. And, you know, actually the last couple of things I've been doing is that you get to learn a lot about a lot of different things. Yeah, you know, you get to hear loads of people's different stories, different ways that people are working to make things better.

And you know, I'm always in awe of those people who do that really focused work and keep that level of detail and working at that level of detail to pull out these, you know, amazing findings and those type of things. I can't do it, but I'm impressed with people who can.

Michael (00:07:44)

Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess it takes focused work to draw the stories out from those people as well. And, you know, that is kind of a particular skill set.

Jen (00:07:55)

And so, Troy, if people look at your CV, they're going to see job titles like creative content producer, digital communications advisor, strategic communications, public affairs, communications and partnerships manager.

For someone on the outside, which I belong to that category, can you tell us a bit about the different nature of those roles and what your days look like in those jobs? Because I think we probably have a lot of listeners who are like, "Yeah, that's what I want to do. I want to tell the stories of people who are doing cool work in these organisations."

But that's a lot of different job titles. Can you sort of talk us through your day to day in some of those different roles?

Troy (00:08:39)

Yeah. And I suppose I can put it in the context of content production, I suppose, the creative development sort of side of it. A lot of that is actually producing the stuff you see. Sometimes it's documents, sometimes it's video. And increasingly it's video of course, because that's what is out there.

But it's actually I suppose, doing the building, doing the creating, doing the... producing those things. And there's... I've heard a lot of other people on here who are doing that kind of really creative production side of it. And that's really fun, because it's trying to work out what is actually I suppose, at the moment, what is going to get people's attention enough to engage them in the digital world I suppose, we're in now, where there's so much content all the time.

And creative content production is really the crux of stopping people scrolling and getting their attention. And sometimes, you know, that... the next phase, I suppose, with the communications is more I suppose, moving to that strategic side of it, okay? You know, what are we trying to do here?

What are those different channels and tools and creatives that we need to deliver the things that we're looking to try and, the messaging that we're trying to get for this particular audience at this particular time, for whatever reason?

And I suppose sometimes that is almost a public health information kind of angle, where you're trying to get these big concepts across to people. So things like antibiotic resistance, you know, trying to get that concept across to people so they weren't sort of pushing their GP to get an antibiotic every time they saw them.

Michael (00:10:37)

Yeah, that's really interesting, you know. Those public health messages, you know, are so important. And you know, getting across the right message that you know, fits what you're trying to achieve.

You know, it sounds really interesting, and I'd love to ask you if you could share perhaps an example of a piece of work, just to give the audience a bit more of a sense of what that looks like. You know, is there an example of a piece of work that you're really proud of or you know, a campaign that was really successful?

Troy (00:11:09)

That one I was talking about that we worked on there, which was... That was really interesting because it was not something that they'd done before, and it was a concept.

We used a whole lot of different channels, which was really interesting. So at that point, you know, it was running on Facebook and YouTube and Twitter and also sort of mainstream TV ads as well. And it was all...

Jen (00:11:34)

So sorry Troy, this is the antibiotic resistance you're talking about?

Troy (00:11:36)

Antibiotic resistance. Yeah.

Sometimes it's not really big pieces of work. It's some of the smaller things you've looked at. And from really specific stories about things like, you know, assassin spiders and people doing research on those, to all the stories about people who are just embedded in country and their perspective is that, you know, people's health, community health, nature health are, you know, almost one and the same.

Learning about those types of things and trying to get that across has been really interesting, and right out to people who are looking at the economics and system change at that level. So sometimes it's not big projects, it's little stories that you've pulled out that are really interesting or weaving spiders, those types of stories that I've done sometimes which are very small, but they're really beautiful.

Jen (00:12:48)

Who could not love amazing spiders?

Michael (00:12:48)

Yeah, yeah. That's both fascinating and terrifying to know that there's assassin spiders out there.

Troy (00:12:55)

Yes. And I think it's that idea of...

Michael (00:12:59)

What's an assassin spider? I just have to ask, sorry.

Troy (00:13:03)

It was a tiny weenie one that we did a story on. I think her name's Dr Jess Marsh, does the research on them. But they're tiny weeny. They look scary. They've got a hideously scary name. And when you look at them, they're I think about half [the] size of your fingernail and live in leaf litter. So they're very, really not that scary.

But it's those sort of stories where you work with people like her, but also the people who shot it and pulled the story together and did the video and those type of things. So it's sometimes, it's as much as it's the outcome of it, it's also you're proud of working with a team of people to get something like that across the line. It's a team you're working with.

Michael (00:13:55)

Yeah.

Jen (00:13:57)

And don't worry Michael, they're not assassins when it comes to humans, so you're safe.

Michael (00:14:02)

I can relax now.

Troy (00:14:07)

Nobody's ever been killed by an assassin spider as far as I can tell.

Jen (00:14:11)

So what I wanted to ask Troy was, tell us about this leap from an area where you clearly have a lot of passion and experience and expertise and training, which is health, into the environment and conservation issues and needing to communicate with potentially different parts of the public and policy makers who have different, I would imagine, kind of different backgrounds and experiences.

I don't know, it seems like a big shift to me, although I understand that your professional skills are 100% transferable. What made you decide to move into working in the conservation space rather than the health space?

Troy (00:14:51)

Yeah, it was certainly a hard move at the time. I remember it was a difficult decision to make because the place I was working was doing a lot of cancer research stories and that type of thing. And sometimes the work people are doing, you know, at a molecular level in cancer research, it's like more than science. You know, you feel like it's science fiction sometimes, some of the stuff that people are doing. And understanding and trying to understand that is a really interesting challenge, [to] understand it enough to be able to you know, tell a story about it.

I think it's something to do with the scale. Like I wanted, clearly I want to do stuff that I feel like I'm helping on making things better in the career I'm doing. And then just looking at the problems, you know. As you well know, the climate, the environment issues that are coming up are global. And they are probably the thing that most impacts people, likely to impact people's health as well.

Jen (00:16:03)

I mean, at the end of the day, healthy people and a healthy planet are obviously inextricably linked.

And I'm sure a lot of the kind of tools and approaches that you learned in public health communication that... I mean, they must absolutely apply just as well in the environmental space, yeah?

Troy (00:16:22)

Yeah. And it's like whenever you kind of do a little bit of shifting jobs, there's an underlying core of things that you know, are the same kind of skills you need, are the same concepts, are the same things you have to deal with.

But then there's I suppose, a subject matter expert kind of subject. The actual subject matter is different, of course. And that's what you sort of have to take some time to get your head around and listen to the people who are the experts for a while before you can kick off.

Michael (00:16:54)

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's a two way flow of information, you know, communication. It's just as much about listening as it is about, you know, you putting information out there yourself.

And I guess your background in STEM has really helped you, you know, collaborate with other scientists. And so for other scientists who are listening, you know, what would be your advice to them in terms of you know, how can they perhaps, you know, work better with comms professionals that they might interact with?

Or if they're doing you know, their own communication of their own research, you know, on the side. You know, when they've got a little bit of spare time. Do you have any advice for those scientists?

Troy (00:17:43)

From... I'm going to say to start with from me observing and it's probably from people like yourselves, I think scientists doing their communications have got a lot better. I think people are more focused on that now than it probably was you know, a couple of decade or so ago.

Jen (00:18:01)

Yeah, definitely.

Troy (00:18:02)

So I think that's the first thing. I think people are doing a much better job and there's much better channels for people to share what they're doing without the overheads of having to publish and those type of things.

So I think a lot of it is sharing I suppose the passion for what you're doing. And that's... If you think about those scientists who are really good at it, it's about sharing their, their passion for their work and for the issues that they're dealing with. And just finding, I suppose, the channel or the place or the audience that they like to be in to start with. Because if you're not enjoying doing it, if you're doing it sort of on the side, you're not going to do it for very long or for very, for very well.

And yeah, I think it's partially just getting, finding how you work the best in that space and then getting help from people and asking. People to, you know, help you get it out there or help you proof it and those type of things.

Michael (00:19:16)

Yeah. I think that's really good advice. I mean, one thing that we've heard before is that you don't have to be an expert in everything and it is possible to dip your toe into the communication world. And as you say, there are you know, other experts that can help you and are, you know, very happy to help. So I think that's, it's really great to hear that.

Troy (00:19:43)

Yeah.

Jen (00:19:41)

So Troy...

Go ahead.

Troy (00:19:44)

No, no. I was going to say yeah, and there's nobody who's an expert in this because it's changing all the time.

So, you know, there is a bit of you need to keep testing and changing and that type of thing so...

Michael (00:20:01)

Yeah.

Jen (00:20:02)

Which is what makes it fun, right?

Troy (00:20:05)

Yeah. It's a fun of it. Some things happen sometimes seemingly completely randomly. But other times, you know, it's... the successes come from, you know, that slowly build, testing and building as you go along.

Jen (00:20:22)

So Troy, you've been working in this space for quite a long time now, and you've worked with a number of different organisations. I would say you are very experienced. What advice do you have for somebody listening who thinks I'd really like to do that sort of work?

I guess what I'm asking is, what do you know now that you wish you'd known earlier in your career about being, you know, a communications professional who is sharing these very important stories?

Troy (00:20:52)

Yeah. I suppose it's been interesting because of kind of in some ways, a lot of people come into communications from journalism and that type of thing, which has gone, undergone some you know, massive changes over the last years as that's really changed.

So I think it's about wanting to tell the stories now and finding a place where you can work with a really good, with a team of people, and a varied team of people. And what I mean by that is not only a communications team.

But like I was saying, some of the places I work, where you're working with people who are really engaged in the work they're doing and can give you sort of different perspectives on what, I suppose, what the really interesting or key messages are underlying.

So advice-wise, it's really hard to give people advice to say, "Okay, you know, clearly it's good to have some background experience or some training and that type of thing in communications", but it's equally as important to be really engaged and to be trying things out and producing stuff and just having a go at it, I suppose.

Jen (00:22:23)

And would part of your advice be that it might be good to work at least initially in a bigger organisation where you're going to have the possibility of being in a team with a lot of people with different background and different skills? Or does the reverse apply, that if you're in a smaller organisation, you get the opportunity to try new things?

Troy (00:22:42)

Yeah, look. It's a, that's a really hard question to ask how you would start. Because there's positives and you know, minuses for large organisations and smaller ones.

Large organisations, you get access to a lot of people, but there is also sometimes a lot of bureaucracy going on in there, a lot of... You can actually get a bit pigeon-holed in the role you're actually in.

Whereas smaller organisations sometimes, you've got to be a bit more of a jack-of-all-trades and you get to have a go at a whole lot of different things. So I would not feel confident to tell people to choose one or the other of those paths, because they both have their you know, positives and negatives side to them.

Jen (00:23:36)

But that's good to know, right? So someone who's currently searching for jobs, there are going to be great benefits to any organisation.

Troy (00:23:42)

Yeah.

Jen (00:23:43)

Presumably it helps if you care about the message that they're sharing and you're invested in the goals that they have. See what the possibilities are.

Troy (00:23:53)

But... Yeah, sometimes it's just getting that experience with how, how that, how the system works and that type of thing.

So, you know, there's so many different ways to work now, freelance and those type of things as well.

But it's often good to you know, see how the process works within an organisation in the first place.

Michael (00:24:18)

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that variety can be very helpful and yeah, I think it comes back to the point you made earlier as well about just, you know, making sure that you're passionate about, you know, the area that you're working with and what you're communicating about. And, you know, that's like the most important ingredient I would imagine and kind of everything else flows from that.

So fantastic, Troy. I mean, we're having a great conversation, I feel like we could continue chatting but we do have to switch gears now and move to the final segment of the podcast. So we like to round out our interviews with some quick questions.

Michael (00:25:03)

Some really tough ones. We saved the tough ones for last, Troy.

And the first very tough question that I would like to ask you is: As a comms professional, what's your favourite emoji to use?

Troy (00:25:18)

Oh, good question. Right now it's the blue heart.

Michael (00:25:24)

Okay. Why?

Jen (00:25:24)

Ooh, tell us what does the blue signifies to any other coloured heart?

Troy (00:25:29)

It's only because at the moment at work we're doing lots of ocean, working with ocean related things, so hence the blue heart.

Jen (00:25:39)

I like the blue heart too. I also like the green heart, I feel like the green heart is where I signal my love for nature.

Troy (00:25:45)

Yeah, we used to use the green heart a lot at Wilderness, as you know.

Michael (00:25:49)

I thought you were going to say your love for Ireland.

Jen (00:25:52)

Of course, Michael. And for all Irish people, especially one named Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:25:57)

Yeah.

Jen (00:26:00)

Okay Troy, second question. Could you tell us about one daily habit that you have that you think improves the way you work?

What Troy daily habit should we all be adopting?

Troy (00:26:14)

Oh, wow. What's one daily habit I like to? I like to check email of course, like everyone else in the morning and then not look at it for a while after that. I also like to get up just before my lovely family and so that there is some quiet time to think before I launch into work.

And the other one is to... I suppose it's to try, and try and have a task list where you have the priority tasks and the tasks that are there, but not priority. So you can keep things filed away a bit in your head. It doesn't always work but, you know...

Jen (00:27:05)

No, but it's good to try.

Michael (00:27:07)

Yeah.

Troy (00:27:08)

It's good to try.

Michael (00:27:11)

We kind of touched on this earlier in the interview Troy, the fact that you're actually, you know, really curious about lots of different areas and perhaps, you know, that's kind of played a role in the career path that you've had up to now. So I'd like to know if you could instantly become an expert in any other field, what would it be?

Troy (00:27:40)

I think I'd like to be a historian in some ways, because there's something about looking at history and how it informs or and informed by what we're facing now, which is really interesting.

Otherwise, quantum physics would be really interesting 'cause I've got no idea how you know what's going on in that. So it would be, that would be really interesting.

Michael (00:28:12)

Yeah, I agree.

Jen (00:28:12)

I also have no understanding of quantum physics, so maybe we can go and do it. You know, short course together and see what we can learn.

Troy (00:28:19)

Yeah.

Jen (00:28:25)

Excellent. Okay Troy, what is one piece of advice you would give yourself?

So you've given advice to other people, but if you could go back to Troy, starting out in your current career, what's one piece of advice that you would give yourself?

Troy (00:28:43)

I'd probably say, don't panic too much about you're not sure what's happening next. It'll, you know, it'll keep moving forward. Just keep going with it.

And... probably to try. Yeah, just listen and learn.

Jen (00:29:09)

That's lovely advice. I wish I had a time machine, so you could go back and deliver it.

But I'd have to understand quantum physics to make that happen. And I don't, sorry.

Michael (00:29:14)

Yeah, very good advice.

Yeah.

Troy (00:29:21)

I don't think our short course is going to get us, is going to get us there.

Jen (00:29:26)

No, sadly not.

Michael (00:29:30)

Allrighty Troy, final question. What's your very top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Troy (00:29:43)

It sounds kind of repetitive. But it is, to both listen to you and respect your subject matter expert.

Try and understand who the audience is you're talking to, of course.

And surround yourself with creative and people who can help you get that message out there.

Jen (00:30:11)

That sounds like excellent advice for all of us.

I'm writing that down right now, Troy. I'll put that on my to-do list for next week, all of those things.

Troy (00:30:21)

I don't think it's particularly, or you know, an awe inspiring new idea on my behalf, Jen.

But it's umm, yeah, it works.

Michael (00:30:29)

I think it's always worth reminding people that you know, listening is so valuable. You know, we're surrounded by talented people and if we are able to kind of learn from those around us, I think it's a huge opportunity for growth and development. So I'm really glad that you've, you've highlighted that.

Jen (00:30:47)

And I'm really glad that you said yes Troy.

Troy (00:30:47)

Yeah, and it's giving, it's trusting in the creative people.

Jen (00:30:51)

Sorry. Say that again, Troy?

Troy (00:30:54)

Yeah, it's really important to you know, trust the creative people you're working with to you know, to do their job. It's, it's fun.

Jen (00:31:06)

And Troy, I am very very glad that you said yes to being a guest on the podcast, because we love learning from you. And you've done a lot of really interesting things over the years, worked for a number of different interesting organisations.

And we're really grateful that you made time to chat with us because that's how we learn, by listening to people like you who work in really different spaces to the ways that we work in.

But we're all driven by the same things to make this information more accessible, to be more inclusive in sharing scientific information. And to help more people feel like this is information that is relevant and meaningful to them and shouldn't be hidden away in difficult to find places.

Troy (00:31:49)

And is interesting and going to make their life better in the long run.

Jen (00:31:57)

Or even in the short term, maybe.

Michael (00:31:57)

Exactly.

Troy (00:31:59)

Yeah, sometimes in the short term hopefully.

Jen (00:32:03)

Exactly.

Michael (00:32:04)

I love those short term benefits. Don't like waiting for my benefits.

Well, thank you so much, Troy. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today.

Troy (00:32:16)

Thank you very much.

Michael (00:32:18)

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