Episode 117 - Interview with science writer and performer Dr Phil Dooley

Transcript

Jen (00:00:14)

Hello, everybody. I am absolutely thrilled to welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm.

I'm Jen and as always, I'm joined by my very favorite podcast cohost. I didn't even say it correctly, Michael. But it's you. It's Dr. Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:00:31)

Thank you Jen. It's the excitement of the episode.

So, well, g'day Jen. How are you doing?

Jen (00:00:39)

Oh, I got a g'day. That means it's a really good day, Michael. I am very very happy because we have one of my favorite science communicators joining us today. And I know a lot of people in SciComm. So, you know, that tells you that we have high quality joining us today. So it's going to be a bit of a treat.

We are joined by someone that I think the word dynamic applies to very well. The word creative certainly applies. His name is Dr. Phil Dooley. And Phil, you're not allowed to talk yet because I want to embarrass you for a while first. While I just, you know, draw out some of your many experiences and accolades.

But I have to tell you Michael, that the Australian Science Communicators is an organisation very close to my heart. When I first became involved with ASC, I think back in about 2010, I found my people and it was just a joyous experience. And Dr. Phil Dooley is the current president of the Australian Science Communicators. So I feel like we should just kind of bow at his feet and say, you know, "El Presidente Phil, would you like someone to peel some grapes for you today?"

Phil (00:01:44)

That'd be grand. Thank you. Yes.
And I prefer curtsies to bows, especially for Michael.

Jen (00:01:50)

Okay.

Michael (00:01:52)

Yes, okay. I have to work on my curtsy. Can I do a squat? Does that count?

Jen (00:01:52)

Okay Michael, are you going to practice your curtsy?

Phil (00:01:57)

Yeah, yeah. That's pretty much the same thing, I think.

Jen (00:02:02)

And really high quality audio too, Michael doing a squat. Anyway... So Michael, Phil, as well as being El Presidente, he's got a PhD in laser physics from the Australian National University. And then he took that knowledge, expertise, passion in physics, and then he's turned it into a whole lot of really fun, amazing science communication endeavors.

And not only is Phil incredibly engaging, but he's really funny. He makes me laugh quite a lot. So Phil's got a lot of different science communication hats. He writes, he's a presenter, he's a performer, he's a musician. He does a lot of training. He teaches. And he's one of those people that when he's up on stage, you just know that you're going to have a good time because he's very very good at engaging audiences.

And he's worked with all sorts of different organizations over the years, including the ABC, Cosmos Magazine. His day job is that he's the manager of communication and outreach at the ANU School of Physics.

But he's also done cool shows and presentations on all sorts of different topics, including on international stages. And he's just, his work is playful, it's creative. You know, he's not just kind of doing the standard I'm going to give a talk, I'm going to write an article. He's singing songs. He's performing comedy. He's doing cabaret. You know, bringing together all of these great things. And it's really really clever.

So... He's also a very experienced journalist. He's written for places like, well I said, Cosmos Magazine and New Scientist, Nature Custom. And you know, he can explain tricky things that people like me who haven't studied physics since Year 11 don't really understand. He can explain them to me in ways that I can understand.

So Phil, we are very very excited to have you here. I'm sorry, I didn't pre-prepare any grapes. I'll try and rectify that later. But we're very excited to be chatting to you. So thank you for joining us on Let's Talk SciComm.

Phil (00:04:06)

It's great to be here. Great to be here. I do have to, I do have to correct one thing.

Jen (00:04:10)

Oh my gosh. What did I get wrong?

Phil (00:04:11)

Although you said cabaret, I never did a high kick on stage yet.

Jen (00:04:17)

Whoa. Come on. We're waiting for you.

Phil (00:04:18)

I got admonished, seriously, at the ASC conference in Brisbane some years back. Somebody said, "But if you're calling this a cabaret, it's got to be, got to be a high kick." But apparently cabaret according to the strict definition is a performance while people sit at tables.

Michael (00:04:35)

Okay.

Jen (00:04:36)

Yeah, I don't think cabaret has to involve high kicks. Whoever said that is completely wrong.

Phil (00:04:41)

Yeah.

Michael (00:04:42)

But you could do a high kick now and then that's all covered off on.

Michael (00:04:50)

And Phil, I have to ask, did you say it's grape to be here?

Phil (00:04:55)

I wish I had. I wish I had, but no.

Michael (00:05:02)

Well, it's grape to have you.

Jen (00:05:06)

Oh dear.

Phil (00:05:07)

Yes. Just peachy, yeah.

Jen (00:05:08)

I'm going to leave you boys to your parties. I'm going to get down to the, I'm going to get down to the serious stuff, Phil. So I did a lot of reading up on you because that's what we like to do with our podcast guests.

So you finished your PhD in 1996. And then the first time I could see you kind of visibly being employed as a science communicator, that was in the School of Physics at the University of Sydney. That was in 2005. So tell me a bit about what happened between those years and what was your you know, big moment when you're kind of like, Yeah, I don't want to be a researcher. Actually, I want to do this other fun stuff. Tell us a bit about that.

Phil (00:05:48)

Yeah. So I did go off into the wonderland or the underland of IT. My PhD, as a PhD in physics does involved a bit of coding, some interfacing hardware with software, with different you know, laser bits and pumps and all of that kind of stuff. So I decided it being the 90s that I wanted to, and therefore the IT bubble, that I wanted to get really rich by doing IT.

And I had certainly in my PhD, got pretty worn out, burnt out. You know, even to the point of depressed that I really did not want to be anywhere near academia by the end of it.

Fortunately, my wife, who had been patiently waiting for me to finish my PhD, which was meant to happen before we got married, but there was an extra 18 months after that while she sat around twiddling her thumbs. And she had always wanted to do volunteer work. And so we put ourselves, our names down for Australian Volunteers Abroad, Australian Volunteers International it's called these days, and ended up being posted to Rarotonga, Cook Islands.

Jen (00:07:10)

Wow.

Phil (00:07:11)

Which was amazing, yeah. She was an ecologist back then, and was working on an endangered species of flycatcher, a little bird called a kākerōri, that was down to about 29 of them left in the world.

Jen (00:07:28)

Wow.

Phil (00:07:29)

And so we decamped to Rarotonga, and I looked for laser physics jobs, but there weren't any. Would you believe that?

Jen (00:07:40)

How strange.

Phil (00:07:41)

I know. So I ended up in IT, running the systems at a small bank. And that was just supporting my real goal to become a rock star. So around the edges, I was having all these bands. I was trying to put these bands together and you know, crack the big scene. And write and record original music, and yadda yadda yadda.

So then it... So that was about, like you said, that was about seven or eight years. And after that time my parents, who were elderly, both died in short succession. But it was in their funerals when I spoke, particularly in Mum's first, and then Dad. You know, as many men do, didn't last longer after his wife had gone. And I was just looking at my life and going, What on earth am I doing? Teaching people to make, print phone bills and bank statements at Xerox, where I was working back then. And why am I not doing science?

And the real kind of revelation there was that I'd spent all these years trying to be Dad, who was a geophysicist. And he was a very, he was [an] excellent scientist. A very quiet unassuming man, worked hard. And listening to his colleague talk about him, I suddenly went, Wait, that's not me at all. I'm my mother, who is an extrovert, who is a connector.

And you know, and I reinvigorated these goals that I'd had to be a science communicator back in, you know, from 10 years ago. And then the rest is history. I found ASC. I found my people in 2004. And it took me eight months, but eventually I landed that job at Sydney Uni.

Jen (00:09:46)

What a story, Phil. I feel like... You know, for some of the people that we speak with on this podcast, it was a particular teacher or a particular moment in a classroom or something.

But for you, the fact that it was really in the midst of no doubt, intense grief and everything that was going on at the time that your parents both passed away, having this revelation that you wanted to do something different with your life. That's incredibly powerful.

And I know that feeling of finding your people at the ASC. I was just kind of six years behind you. But yeah, wow. Look at the incredible, incredible career that you've carved out since then. Amazing.

Phil (00:10:28)

It's been, it feels funny, you know. It feels like I've gone in a bunch of different directions and tried a whole lot of silly things.

And I have a lot of very high achieving friends. You know, I have some friends who are CEOs and you know, very senior barristers. And it's easy to compare myself with them when they've gone in that very linear here's my career mapped out.

And instead, I'm gone in sort of scattered around in all kinds of different directions, trying different things, which is what a science communication career is so often about.

Jen (00:11:04)

Hang on, you're a president. Who cares about barristers and CEOs?
You're a president, Phil. That pips all of the rest of them at [once].

Phil (00:11:12)

It does, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah.
They do actually all curtsy when I say that, yeah.

Jen (00:11:17)

I hope so.

Michael (00:11:21)

You spoke initially at the start Phil, about, you know, losing motivation during your PhD and then later on then re-finding your motivation and your passion and your people in science communication. And I guess, yeah, rediscovering science.

What is your motivation? You know, what does drive you to wear so many hats as Jen mentioned in the opening, you know, working in science communication? Why do you think it's different from the science that you're doing during your PhD?

Phil (00:12:01)

I'm resisting the urge to say I get a very cold head, which is why I need so many hats.

Jen (00:12:08)

Well, you do live in Canberra, which for anyone listening is one of the colder parts of Australia.

Phil (00:12:15)

I... Living in Canberra will do that.

I'd like to say how important it is that we acknowledge the role of science and we drive it. You know, that it's so much benefit to society.

And definitely one of the great things about being a job mostly as a science writer but you know, also the other, the performance side of things that I do is that it's always a good story you're telling. It's always somebody's done something amazing and got to, you know, had some great idea and they've come up with something good. So it's overall a very positive story for society.

But there's a part of me that just loves making a fool of myself and getting on stage. And I love music. I love getting people singing together. I like constructing information in a way that tells a captivating and engaging story and making people laugh. So it's kind of... I'm the youngest, so I'm clearly an attention seeker.

Jen (00:13:16)

I'm also the youngest Phil, and an extrovert, so I can totally relate.

Michael (00:13:21)

Yeah, it's great to hear that you've really, you know, you landed in your passion, which is fusing science and performance. I'd love to know a little bit more about that. So, you know, for you personally, I guess it's very rewarding because it's bringing together your two passions and you know, it's special for you for that reason.

But what about for the audience? You know, what does blending those two things together allow you to do in terms of facilitating the experience of the audience and you know, what they might learn or you know, how they can be entertained? What's so special about bringing together performance and science in that way?

Phil (00:14:05)

Well, I think what I've switched around is the order of learning and entertainment. And there was actually a specific moment where I did a journalism evening course and the trainer said to us, "You've got to entertain first and inform later". Because if you do it in the reverse order, you know, think what happens.

And so for me, the ultimate goal of any show that I do is that it's fun and that people are entertained. And if they learn something, sure, that's good. But also, there's just the idea that you are engaging with them.

And even if they don't learn anything, they've met a scientist. They've encountered science in a way that doesn't scare them, doesn't baffle them, doesn't alienate them. And that, even if they don't learn anything, but they've at least seen scientists having fun.

You know, a lot of my science in the pub nights are getting other scientists on stage and trying to encourage them to be creative. And even when it doesn't work from an educational point of view, they've still had fun and the audiences therefore had fun.

And I've seen the audience be completely baffled by a talk, but still totally on the side of the speaker because they've given it a shot and they've had, they've tried something. And it's [an] intensely, you know, human experience.

And that I realise now, having rejected it as a school student, is this entire sector called the arts. That's what the arts is. It's about connecting with humans and be that through a story, through a visual image, through a performance, through music. They're all ways of connecting. And we, instead of having to think, how can we make science engaging? We have to think, how can we make engagement science-y? So that's kind of the way I come at it.

Jen (00:16:14)

Oh my gosh, that's quite radical and revelatory, Phil. I love it.

So tell me where humour fits into engaging. Because I know you've done a lot of things that are funny and you said you like to make people laugh. And we've talked to a couple of people on this podcast who are kind of science comedians.

How much is about ...? Like, is it because when people are laughing, they're open to new insights and to learning? Is it just because people are having fun when they're laughing? Like, you still want to share accurate information, right? Even if you're trying to make it funny. Talk to me, what role does humour play in engaging audiences?

Phil (00:16:52)

Well, the first thing I'm going to do is say I don't think accuracy is that important. Because people will not even remember things, right? And they'll you know... And most of the time, if they're out by a little bit of this or that, then it doesn't matter.

And if you really need accuracy, well hey, that's what we have computers and Google and ChatGPT for. So...

Jen (00:17:16)

Not ChatGPT, not if you want it to be accurate.

Phil (00:17:22)

That's where people get their facts from. I'm not saying it's right. But what's more important is that we don't, you know, kill their enthusiasm with those kind of things.

So I'm a big fan of the Alan Alda book: ‘If I knew what you were talking about, would I have this expression on my face?’

Jen (00:17:44)

It's like the best book title ever, right?

Phil (00:17:46)

It's pretty out there. And that actually goes through a whole lot of research, that humour is very much about connecting to people, is the shortest line between two points. It's disarming. It's showing that somebody's not against you, that somebody's working with you.

And it's really interesting. One of the many things I've tried was a theatre science collaboration. And I worked with these theatre professionals. And we talked at length about humour and we tried to do, you know, funny things. And they pulled my pants down on stage and those kind of slapstick funny things.

But they said, "If you just tell the truth, then humour comes naturally from it". And that was such an interesting insight to me. And one of the biggest things I do on stage is just try to be me. And just you know, not try and put up, you know, any big show or persona or anything like that.

One of the funniest things that's ever happened at one of my Science in the Pub shows was this researcher got up and he was from India. And he perhaps didn't expect what was going to happen. And he was like the fourth speaker. And there'd been a couple of pretty good speakers. I usually try and put someone confident on first. And then he stood up. And he just said, "Hello, everyone. I'm terribly sorry, but I am not funny." And it brought the house down.

Michael (00:19:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was being serious.

Phil (00:19:26)

He was being serious, but he was speaking the truth. And it just, it was so brilliant. It was just such a lovely piece of authenticity.

Jen (00:19:33)

Oh, that's so good.

Phil (00:19:36)

And it just nailed it. You know, say what you are and what you really are.

But the, I guess one of the big sort of technical things, actually pausing quite a lot. You can get away with huge pauses. And it really adds to the drama of what you're saying. And so that's one of the biggest things I teach. But that's interesting, because I think that comes from when you are genuinely in rapport with your audience and you're listening to them, that you have to stop and listen.

So you actually are looking at them and seeing where they're at and whether they're following you and whether they've got a funny look on their face, or whether they're just looking at their phone or whatever. And so I think that's, to my mind, one of the biggest improvements most people can make is just to slow down and really have a big pause.

Michael (00:20:28)

Yeah.

Jen (00:20:30)

Yeah, pauses are so powerful. And I think that's something we talk a lot with our students about. They feel like pauses are a sign of weakness or lack of knowledge or confusion or whatever. When you explain that, "No, actually, a pause is very powerful and really respectful to your audience who might need a few moments to catch up with you".

Phil...

Phil (00:20:49)

Yeah, I still remember the first talk I gave with overheads. That was before PowerPoint. And the taking off of the backing paper, taking off the overhead, putting the new one on, arranging the backing paper to show only the bit you wanted it to show, it felt like it took so long. I was dying up there.

And then when I actually watched the next talk I went to and I watched somebody doing exactly the same process, I think, Oh, that's nothing at all. And like you say, it gave me a chance to process what was going on.

Jen (00:21:26)

I am also that old, Phil. My honours talk was with overhead sheets, which I hadn't numbered and I dropped.

Phil (00:21:34)

Argh...

Jen (00:21:36)

Oh, such a great memory. I want to ask you for a memory, Phil. So you shared with us this really quite powerful experience of at or after your parents' funerals going, Nah, this is not what I'm meant to be. I'm going to do something different.

Do you have a similarly powerful memory of maybe you were on stage, I don't know what you were doing, when you're just like, Yes, this is what I am meant to be doing. This is me. This is me doing my thing and I love it. Have you had that moment as well? Or maybe lots of those moments?

Phil (00:22:11)

You know what? It was the same occasion.

Jen (00:22:13)

Yeah. Right.

Phil (00:22:14)

It was actually delivering mum's eulogy. And telling the stories of her life. And actually, you know, talking to the audience, 'cause I knew a lot of them.

And there is a definite memory of that where I was just like, Wow, I'm connecting with people here. This is... I'm talking about something intensely emotional. Vulnerable, but yet powerful. So, yeah. It was actually that, I mean, that was kind of part of it, you know. It was having that experience and thinking. Yeah.

Jen (00:22:49)

What a special way to have honoured your mum, Phil.

Phil (00:22:54)

Yeah. And I played Chopin. I played the Raindrop Prelude. Mum loves Chopin and I love Chopin too. On the piano. And I just cried the whole way through it. But it doesn't affect your fingers. And one of my little cousins was sitting nearby. And he was just kind of looking at me going, what is going on here?

Jen (00:23:15)

Did you get through the whole piece?

Phil (00:23:18)

Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did.

I played some Beethoven at dad's funeral, and I did muff up that, which was a bit annoying. But anyway, yeah.

Jen (00:23:26)

Oh well.

Michael (00:23:26)

Yeah. So a transformative experience for you and everyone else that was there, it sounds like.

Yeah. And I feel like we could continue chatting, Phil. It's been really really great. We've just finished the warm-up questions. And we do have to move to our very serious questions now, just to you know, before we can officially finish this interview. So I hope you're feeling nice and warmed up and ready for the really hard-hitting questions.

Phil (00:23:58)

Okay. I'll just do some quick curtsies, and I'll be ready.

Michael (00:24:05)

Okay, Phil. So the first question I would like to ask is if you could instantly become an expert in anything else, what would it be?

Phil (00:24:14)

I don't really know. I'm perfect as I am.
No, that's not the right answer.

Jen (00:24:23)

Maybe curtsies? Be an expert at curtsies.

Phil (00:24:24)

I'd know some...

Phil (00:24:29)

Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to be better at fixing things around the house.

I mean, I'm basically a physicist, and that means I have a good theoretical grasp on how to fix things. But I'm not an engineer, which means my fixes either don't work very well, or only work for a little while, or look really bad, and they're held together with duct tape.

Jen (00:24:52)

So Phil, the fixer-upperer. I think that's very valid. I'd love to be more handy around the house. I think that's very real.

Michael (00:25:02)

I don't even try, so... You're winning.

Jen (00:25:06)

Next question, Phil. Tell us about a daily habit that improves the way that you work.

Phil (00:25:13)

Improves the way that I work is keeping a good to-do list and smashing things down onto the to-do list as soon as they arise, so that I don't forget them.

Because there's so many things that I can forget at the moment. They come at me at yeah, at all times, yeah.

Jen (00:25:33)

Well, that's what happens when you're the president.

Phil (00:25:36)

Oh my goodness, yes.

Michael (00:25:42)

Alrighty Phil, what is your all-time favorite movie, book, or TV show?

Phil (00:25:52)

Ooh, ahh. I loved Fleabag recently. I thought it was an incredible series. And the vulnerability in the main character was so extraordinary, and yet it was really interesting and innovative in its presentation. And fabulous acting, and dead funny as well.

But I mean, as an all-time classic, When Harry Met Sally, that's just up there. Absolutely fantastic.

Jen (00:26:27)

We're adding to our list of people's favourites. I love it.

Phil, what would you describe as a big setback in your career? Or has there been a big setback in your career? Or maybe it's just all been smooth sailing?

Phil (00:26:43)

Yeah, look, I feel like there have been many big setbacks.

Jen (00:26:51)

Pick your favourite.

Phil (00:26:52)

Yeah, yeah, pick my favourite. Look, I'm going to go with this theatre science collaboration that I spoke about earlier. I... We... So, I met up with some, with an old friend. He'd gone off and become a professional actor, and I had gone and been a physicist, and we got talking about communication.

And we ended up forming a group that worked together for four, five, six years. During the pandemic, we switched from stage shows to online, making sketches which we hoped were funny. And we just could not get them to go viral as we wanted.

And I still to this day don't know whether it was because the content wasn't good enough, or because the algorithm was against it, or because our marketing wasn't good enough. There's so many ways that you can kind of look back on it, and I was really sad when it didn't work out.

It really actually hit me for a year or two, I think. I learnt so much from it, and you know, I'm really grateful for the time that I had working with those guys. And yeah, it was just... But just, you know, it just... I just couldn't, I didn't feel like we ever got it off the ground and I still to this day don't really understand why.

Jen (00:28:37)

Yeah, thanks for sharing, Phil. Frustrating.

Michael (00:28:40)

Sounds like not for lack of trying, and just some things remain a mystery.

Okay Phil, last question that I would like to ask is what is your very top tip if you had to pick one, for communicating effectively about science?

Phil (00:28:59)

Do... Involve the arts in a way that you're good at and comfortable with. So, I think, like I say, the entertainment part has to come first. So, what is it that you're good, you're best at, you're most engaging at?

If you're not at all comfortable on stage, then don't go on stage. You know, draw cartoons instead. If you're, even if you're... If you love drawing, you know, little cartoons, then use that as your method for doing it. So, I think that's the best thing because...

And maybe that's you know, hearkening back to my setback was maybe that was the thing, was that I was trying to do theatre and be an actor, which I'd never really done before. And, you know, maybe that wasn't the right thing for me. I should have stuck to music, because I've been doing it all my life.

Jen (00:30:01)

Yeah, I think that's great advice. And there's no question that bringing the arts and the sciences together is what so many of us love. That's what brings so much meaning to so many people.

So I for one am very very glad Phil that you have followed the career path that you have. I can't imagine you working in IT right now. We would all be poorer for you not being on stage and doing your wacky things, even if you're not good at high kicks. I'm okay with that.

So, thank you, El Presidente. It is such a pleasure to chat with you today and a real pleasure to work with you on all things ASC. And yeah, I'm looking forward to the next high-kicking, joking show.

Phil (00:30:45)

Thank you, Jen. Thank you, Michael.
It's been great chatting to you.

Michael (00:30:48)

Hey thanks Phil. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:31:04)

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd love you to tell a friend about the podcast or leave us a review. And you can reach out to us on social media.

And we're very excited to announce that we're launching a new newsletter called the ChitChat. So if you are interested in receiving some hot tips, or advice on science communication, or to know what Jen and I have been reading or watching or interested in lately, or to just hear about some interesting science communication events that are happening, then this is a newsletter for you and we would love you to subscribe to it. So check out the link in the show notes or our posts on Instagram. And thank you so much to Ben, Dave, Restia and Wahyu for helping us get this newsletter set up and established.

And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.