Episode 119 - Interview with medical entomologist Dr Véronique Paris

Transcript

Jen (00:00:11)

Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm, my very, very favorite place to be, in part because it's where I get to spend some time with my very excellent friend, Dr. Michael Wheeler. Hello, Michael.

Michael (00:00:25)

Hello, Jen. I like being a very excellent friend. So thank you for that introduction.

Jen (00:00:32)

We're very lucky that we get to work with people who we also absolutely adore as human beings. I feel like you're winning in life when you can say that.

Michael (00:00:41)

Yes.

Jen (00:00:41)

We are also winning in life because today we are talking with one of our, I think one of our long-term friends of the podcast, certainly a long-time listener who I've had in my mind to interview for so long, Michael. I don't really know why it's taken so long, but we are going to learn a lot about effective science communication today.

So we are talking with our friend, Dr. Véronique Paris, who, you know, she's at the frontline of her own research, which is mosquitoes. And we'll get into that, and mosquito-borne diseases. But she's also really, I think, at the frontline of some really fantastic and engaging science communication.

So for background, Véronique is a research fellow. She's a medical entomologist with us at the University of Melbourne. And as you're going to hear about her, outreach work is very very hands on. That is definitely a pun, which you'll appreciate shortly.

So, her research is focused on reducing the threat of mosquito-borne diseases in Australia. So this includes things like Ross River virus and increasingly the flesh-eating infection, Buruli ulcer, which is pretty scary. And we're going to ask her about it because we have seen rising cases in recent years in Victoria.

But I think the reason we really want to talk to Véronique is because she's so skilled and willing to engage in all sorts of interesting things that I think probably make many of us uncomfortable. So that includes making herself really vulnerable on social media and sharing a lot, which obviously we want to talk about on the podcast.

But the reason I was trying to make a silly pun about hands-on is because one of the things that has led to Véronique being very prominent in social media is that she for her work has to maintain her own mosquito colony in the lab. And to feed them, she's actually putting her arm, her bare arm, into these cages, containers, whatever you call them, of hungry mosquitoes. She has to do this all of the time so that she can keep them healthy and feed them.

So you know, someone who hates mosquitoes, all hats off to her. But I think it's the fact that she's doing a whole lot of really hard and important work in the lab, but she's so committed to sharing this information with a really broad audience.

So she's particularly active on Instagram. I think last time I checked, she's got more than 18000 followers on Instagram, which is pretty cool for a scientist working on insects. And you know, she shares posts that yes, are about her methods and her field work, but also her career path.

She's let everyone see her mosquito-bitten arm, which makes me feel a bit, Oh, I don't like it. But she's brought in you know, huge amounts of curiosity and questions and conversations from this really big and broad audience. So that's what we want to explore.

For background, Véronique was born in Germany. She earned her Bachelor of Science and her Masters of Science both in Berlin, and she moved to Australia for her PhD. And I sort of get the impression that she's made a deliberate choice to focus on local health risks, which is really interesting to me.

So I guess I just want to have the chance to ask her about what she's learned and what she can share with other scientists and science communicators who really want to bring their research and bring it very much into the forefront of people's thinking who might not have any other interest in science. So I think yeah, she does that amazingly well. So welcome.

Véronique (00:04:15)

Hi, Jen and Michael. Thank you so much for having me. And that was I think, the most glow... like great introduction I've ever had.

I think you were smirking like, Oh, of course I would say yes to a podcast invitation if I now get invited, introduced in such glorious words. Thank you very much.

Jen (00:04:32)

And I really want to start by asking you, Véronique, because you've been quite public in sharing that once upon a time, you didn't think that university was a place for you.

And yet, here you are. You are in science. You are [a] highly successful, very well-respected researcher. Tell us that story. How did it go from, Yeah, no, I don't belong there, to now look at it, you are smashing career goals left, right and center.

Véronique (00:04:59)

Look, it's been a long path. I'm not going to lie, it didn't kind of change from overnight. And I was always very interested in nature and I was always a very practical child and doing things with my hands.

And I was not bad at school, but I was, like I needed to study. I then finished school after year 10 and worked in a zoo for four years and did an apprenticeship. So I'm a zoo animal keeper by training. And that was really the first time where I gained a lot of perspective and confidence in my actual skills, and got me to reflect on what I actually want to do moving forward for the rest of my life. Because I think I was a bit removed from the pressure of school and kind of living up to my brother's sort of successes.

And I was good at the apprenticeship, which includes going to school as well and learning a whole lot about zoology in general. So you know, you learn everything about every animal you could imagine. So it's not as trivial as people might think. It's just sort of you know, cleaning up after animals. There's a whole lot of school attached to it as well. And that really kind of then, kind of driven me to think maybe I actually want to go to university and use the sort of passion I have for nature in a more academic way.

And then I started my Bachelor's and got really really, found a really really good mentor who I've done my Bachelor and Master thesis with. Who's kind of, was able to see through all of my insecurity and imposter syndrome and kind of noticed that I was thinking in the correct way and I was passionate about the right things.

And he was really guiding me to kind of gain more experience and more confidence by pushing me gently to put myself out there. Because if you get yourself, you know, put yourself out there and you get good feedback, then you just start creating a list of evidence against your inner critic saying, Well, I can't be that bad at it because look at all of these things that I've got. You know, good feedback from people that aren't necessarily just my direct supervisor.

And it kind of escalated from there. So sometimes it's really funny to look back because if yeah, if I would tell my past self that I would be sitting here and be interviewed to talk about my science and my science communication, I would have laughed. But here we are.

Jen (00:07:23)

Here we are, and we're so glad to be here.

Michael (00:07:27)

Yeah, I think what you're saying really resonates with me as well. Like I don't think, you know, I was particularly good at school.

And really, maybe only in my honours year did I kind of think, Oh, actually, I actually really like research. But yeah, I mean it's completely different, isn't it? Like research is very different to school. So it's really great that you found that passion.

And similar to you, I've moved to Australia from overseas. Yeah, how did you find that move? I mean it, for me, it was a really big decision. Was it a really big decision for you, or did it make sense?

Véronique (00:08:08)

It was a very big decision. I had, I have cheated a little bit in dipping my toes in first. So I first came to Australia doing my Master's as a semester abroad and came into Ary Hoffmann's lab to start working on mosquitoes because I really wanted to work with him.

So I was here first for six months in 2017 to do a project. And then I went back to Berlin to finish off my Master's. And then was offered by Ary the opportunity to come back to do a PhD if I'd get a scholarship and if I'd get accepted into the University of Melbourne.

And so when this decision came, I was kind... It was kind of hard to decline because I kind of felt the universe has sent me a sign because you know, now I've been accepted in a very competitive, you know, degree. So how can I not go?

Saying it like that though, it sounds like it was an easy decision. But obviously it was quite, quite a major step of leaving my friends and my family behind, everything I knew. And there was again, this imposter syndrome and insecurity knocking very hard saying, Well, just because you're like, we're able to blind them all for six months, doesn't mean that you can actually like, keep that up for an entire PhD. And then you're out there without your support system. What the hell are you doing? But I was kind of just pushing forward because again, I got this great opportunity to go.

So I don't know how that was for you Michael, but if you move and you start building a complete network in your personal and professional life from scratch, kind of gives you a lot of confidence, doesn't it? Because it's like, Oh wow, these people didn't know me before. And all of a sudden, I'm not all by myself, isolated and lonely. And also my professional life is going really well. So yeah.

Michael (00:10:08)

Yeah, yeah. I think on the first day I arrived to start, you know, my PhD, it was like a Friday. And then my supervisor said, "Oh, we're all going down to the pub now."

And I was like, Oh, really? Like the students and the, you know, the postdocs and the supervisors? I think I'm going to like this.

Jen (00:10:29)

And the rest is history. Michael will go into the pub.

So Véronique, obviously we really want to get into talking about your science communication and the amazing outreach work that you've done. But I do just really want to at least briefly explore your research first, because like you work on some pretty scary things, Ross River virus, Buruli ulcer.

You know, they're kind of urgent, they're kind of scary, they're confronting. What drew you to study those? And I guess I'm interested in knowing your thoughts in the context of climate change.

How do you think mosquito-borne disease risks are going to evolve in the years to come? I'm guessing this is a really really important area to have smart people like you working in.

Véronique (00:11:19)

Yeah, so I got motivated to especially focus on Australian mosquitoes and Australian-born disease risks because I think I moved here and I kind of felt like I want to work on something that's important for the local community that I've just started being a part of.

My PhD then kind of started being like, Hey, we can't just generalise. We actually need to do the work where the disease transmission is happening. And that was a very important sort of realization for me and really started me being passionate about local research for local problems and local species and local communities.

And I then started realising you know, this One Health theme is very true for vector-borne diseases because we can't just look at one thing in the whole cycle, we need to look at everything together. And that includes the climate, absolutely.

And we don't really know much about what that means for mosquito-borne disease transmission because models don't have a lot of data to actually modeling the risk of, in a very certain way. Obviously, there are a couple of things that are already taken into account. It's what sort of temperature mosquitoes thrive in and what that temperature means in terms of climate change, which areas will be more likely to have more mosquitoes, et cetera. But again, this data is based on one or two mosquito species.

So I'm hopeful that pushing for more localised data collection will also help us to improve the predictions that modelers are able to so sophisticatedly calculate, but they are just stuck with the data that we provide them with.

Jen (00:13:07)

Yeah, you're never going to run out of things to do.

Véronique (00:13:09)

Yes, that's also a thing. That is very true. It's a nice thing to know there will be always things for me to work on, but it's also sometimes a bit scary to be like, Oh my god, will I be able to make any claim from the bit of data that I've collected?

Michael (00:13:23)

Well I mean I suppose, you know, you say, you use the word scary there and some of these diseases sound scary. I mean, to be honest, I hadn't heard of this flesh-eating ulcer, but now I'm concerned.

Yeah, and you know, I suppose maybe the communication is part of that impact that you're seeking to have, like a combination of collecting good data and you know, generating new knowledge. But then, you know, communication and education I suppose, of these issues.

So I'd like to ask you about that a little bit. You primarily communicate on Instagram. Jen mentioned you've got 18,000 followers. Why did you pick Instagram and what have you learned from your activity on there?

Véronique (00:14:11)

So I picked Instagram because I wanted to break out of the more professional social media platforms, that I'm using to you know, connect with my professional network and increase my professional network.

But I always got a bit you know, annoyed that I don't actually make it to a demographic that aren't necessarily looking for science news actively. And I really thought like let's give it a shot and try and see what we can, who I can reach on Instagram.

Because it's a very different format. Like, it's very, it's a lot more visual. And it is algorithm driven in the way that the content might get pushed to people that are initially not looking for science content, then are curious about what the hell is this, and then might come and stick around to learn some random facts about mosquitoes that they didn't know they want to know.

And about other sort of scientific, you know, content in general. Because I always feel like with the mistrust in science and scientists in general, I think it, part of it, obviously it's a multifaceted problem and there's not one answer to it. But I feel like one thing that we're kind of not doing a good job at as scientists is to make sure that people understand it's people doing the work, like actual human beings, like you might sit next to in a pub.

And I was trying to see if that is maybe a thing that can be changed by actually showing me as a person doing the thing with my own hands. Like this is how I set up an experiment. This is how I do desk work. These are the things that I'm doing.

Michael (00:15:48)

Yeah, I guess it can be very mysterious. Like what do scientists do? And it's so different between different fields.

And you know, I guess if you're a mosquito scientist, maybe that involves you know, sticking your hand in a cage full of mosquitoes. And yeah, that's, you know, that's very interesting and good for people to know I guess.

Jen (00:16:10)

Yeah, I really love the idea that you know, I think so many of us in science have this deep kind of you know, feeling of anxiety and feeling quite unsettled about the fact that we know there are issues with public trust in science.

And I think you're absolutely right. Like no one can fix that completely or quickly, but every time we chip away at it by you presenting yourself as a real-life human being who yes, sometimes you do wear a lab coat in the lab, but you also do a whole heap of other things as well. And you're contributing to scientific understanding while being a real multifaceted human being.

But I'm really interested to know your thoughts on boundaries. Like how much thought have you put into, how much of you, your personal self do you share? Because that makes you really vulnerable, right? Like as soon as you're not just behind the lab coat, behind the lab door, being you know, completely objective, you open yourself up to criticism and to vulnerability.

Like tell us about your thought process. I saw the other day you shared a post which you titled, "My Academic Fails", in big orange letters. How hard has it been for you to work out: I'll share this much of myself, but this bit I would never share publicly?

Véronique (00:17:28)

That is a very good question. It's funny because I think when I first started posting things, I haven't put much thought into that because I didn't really think it would go anywhere.

And then when I had a couple of videos kind of take off and bring a lot of people in and to do exactly what I wanted, to reach the sort of demographic that isn't necessarily looking for this kind of, you know, content, you also bring in a lot of people that are just trolling and don't want to say anything nice.

And that's when I then started thinking about, Okay, what do I actually want to achieve and how can I do that in a way that makes me also feel comfortable and you know, happy?

I feel a lot more comfortable since I feel the community and actually people, I'm engaging with people under videos and they will also then deal with some, you know, out there comments for me. And it's nice to see that there's a community under my posts now where people have actual discourse and it's not all just, you know, this side is against this side. Actually people educating each other now, which is lovely.

But to come back to boundaries, I think since I felt that sort of more community sense, I felt more comfortable also sharing more personal things about my journey, or my career failures, or how I deal with rejections.

Because I felt I've just shared all of the things that I wanted to share. Like this is this cool thing that I'm doing, and this is this other cool thing I'm doing, and here look at me presenting at this event. And that kind of, it felt inauthentic because not everything is great all of the time.

An academic career is fast-paced. And one or two emails that come out of nowhere that say like "You didn't get the thing" or "Where's this thing? You're past the deadline". Or one meeting that you feel like you stuffed up can really kind of make you feel a lot more fragile about like you know, is this really for me? And do I really belong here?

And this can go from one day to another, at least for me. And I think then you can't come out the other end as well when you kind of really check, you know, reflect on yourself and be like, that wasn't actually so bad.

So I felt inauthentic to not share that. And I decided that if I want to be a science communicator on Instagram about my particular research, then it has to be, that has to be part of it. Because otherwise, what sort of role model would I be if I act like everything is always just great and I never have any difficulties.

Michael (00:20:08)

Yeah. I think you've really defined a good boundary there. And I think you're really brave you know, in I suppose being a little bit honest and vulnerable on social media, certainly far braver than I.

I'm in a little bit of two minds about you know, social media in general. I really see like the positives and you know, the benefits of being on there. You know, especially hearing you speaking about it and, you know, other examples like that. But I also really despise how these platforms have been designed to be addictive. And I feel like a lot of people struggle with the fact that it's a time suck, you know.

And I think it's fine if you're on social media and you're having, you know, positive interactions where you're learning, you know, new information about mosquitoes. But I think a lot of scientists perhaps hesitate, you know, engaging for those reasons. And maybe also you know, fear of criticism and trolling. And where? I mean, how do you think about the risks of social media?

Véronique (00:21:20)

I would agree with most of the things that you say. Obviously, I don't think, you know, social media is just great. And for my own use, I've you know, limit the time that I'm using social media. Because yeah, it is a time sink. It is designed to be addictive. And you could, do fall into rabbit holes where you wonder an hour later, how did I get here? And that's especially for young people, I think, you know, very, very difficult to navigate and very difficult to stay, you know, healthy and happy.

I hope to think at least with you know, actually contributing anything on social media that is not just you know, some bits that are designed to draw people in and to trick the algorithm and whatever is out there that keeps you in a rabbit hole.

If I hopefully bring someone in to then scroll through at least research-based rabbit hole on Instagram, I feel better about this. Because there's actually like a nice niche on Instagram with other science-driven accounts. And if you just keep watching those, then these are the ones that the algorithm will serve to you. And I think that's at least better, you know, to replace the time that you doom scroll with learning something about science and how other scientists navigate their degrees et cetera.

But I don't have a real answer for that. You might have noticed by me waffling about it. But it's a bit of a you know, two-sided coin where on one hand, everyone can benefit and connect and make great connections and learn things. While on the other side, you're just this far away, a little bit away every single time from it being toxic and unhealthy.

Michael (00:23:07)

Yeah, well I mean, I suppose if you're not out there putting out interesting facts. You know, where people are learning something about science, then you're not combating, you know, some of the other cat videos that are out there. I mean, cat videos aren't that bad.

Véronique (00:23:23)

Cat videos are fine. Cat videos are fine.

Michael (00:23:26)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm partial to a cat video every now and again. But I guess, I guess you know, by not engaging perhaps, you know, you risk not getting out there and crafting the message of your own work. And yeah, I really hear what you say. Maybe there are some rabbit holes which are educational rabbit holes.

Maybe to the listeners, you've gone down an educational rabbit hole. You've seen a post that Véronique put out and you found this podcast and you're listening to us now. And you know, I think that's you know, better than some of the other rabbit holes out there. So yeah, I hear you.

But before I rabbit on, I am noticing the time and is... We've reached the point in the podcast Véronique, where we're going to switch gears a little bit and we are going to move to our quick questions.

Michael (00:24:20)

I hope you're ready.

Véronique (00:24:21)

Okay, let's see if I can be quick.

Michael (00:24:23)

Okay. Well, the first question I'd like to ask is, if you could instantly become an expert in anything else, what would it be?

Véronique (00:24:31)

Oh wow. I think in mental health and how this connects to our consumption of things, to stay on topic. How? What we consume?

If it's online or whatever it is visually, how that affects mental health, that would be, I would love to learn about that.

Jen (00:24:52)

I feel like that would be really useful, but you'd also spend your whole life annoying everybody you knew.

Cause you'd be like, did you know by spending your time scrolling…..You'd have to bite your tongue a bit, I think.

Véronique (00:25:03)

Yeah, I know. I agree.

But while... Yeah, while we were talking about this, this was the first thing coming to mind.

Jen (00:25:08)

Yeah, no, I think it would be a great thing to have knowledge in for sure.

And it kind of does link a little bit to our next question. Next question is, do you have a daily habit that you feel really improves the way you work?

Véronique (00:25:22)

Yes, and that is cycling to work. Since I'm cycling to work, I don't have a weird slump when I get to the office where I need to get a coffee and set myself up for like an hour. I cycle in, I get off my bike, and then I have like a productivity spur. And that isn't happening if I have to get to the office in any other way.

Jen (00:25:43)

Yeah.

Michael (00:25:44)

Hear, hear. But do you have a double productivity spur if you cycle and get a coffee?

Véronique (00:25:50)

I would hope so. But unfortunately, there is a limit.

There is the infinite productivity hole I could fall into. If you find one, let me know where it is.

Michael (00:26:01)

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, oh I hear you. Need to get the bike fixed. Yeah, cycling. I'm a big fan.

Okay. So next question is, I would like to know what is your all-time or recent favourite movie, book or TV show?

Véronique (00:26:20)

Oh. Okay, most recent, I will need to say Only Murders in the Building, which is funny because it's about people doing a true crime podcast in real life. And here we are on a podcast and I'm watching this as we speak. I've discovered it and I love that there are five seasons and I've just discovered it so I can binge watch it.

Michael (00:26:39)

Okay. I'm writing that down.

Jen (00:26:39)

Yeah, It's a great show. I watched it with my son and we really loved it. It's very clever. Very funny.

Véronique (00:26:46)

It's nice and lighthearted and colourful. A lot of things that more modern TV shows seem to lack somehow.

Jen (00:26:53)

Yeah. And it's about murders, but it's not as dismal as it sounds.

Véronique (00:27:00)

But as someone who's addicted to watching Forensic Files, that's exactly what that sort of stuff that I want to watch.

Jen (00:27:06)

Yeah, yeah, no. Highly recommend.

Next question is a little bit more serious. And that is, have you ever had a big setback in your work, in your career?

Véronique (00:27:18)

I think I might need to use the Three Minute Thesis competition that I've been in. I wouldn't really say it was a setback. But for context, I've signed up for it and I was really keen to be part of it. And I usually don't really script anything of my talks because of the same reason that then happened to me in the competition where I got stuck, ran out of time, panicked and couldn't finish. And learned that you know, if you're mic'd up and you're used to swear if you don't know what's coming next then you will do that mic'd up on stage. So that was quite embarrassing.

And I think it was initially, felt like a setback because you know, I keep telling people if you put yourself out there you get positive feedback and that just adds to the list of the great evidence for yourself. But if you, you also set yourself up for failure and then you need to deal with that too. But it actually taught me a lot more than I would have learned if I would have succeeded and it would have been all great. Because you know, you learn a bit about your own personal limits.

I had a lot of personal stuff going on at the same time. I should have probably not competed in this competition at that time in my life. But I've learned about that. And the good thing was that I did then ask if I could run for it again out of the competition and I managed to get through it then. And lots of people gave me good feedback for that. And I tried to focus on that part of the whole situation and haven't shied, you know...

But the great thing that happened is that nothing happened. You know, I say that was my greatest setback, but literally nothing happened. No one ever asked me about it. It didn't like ruin my reputation. It didn't stop me from feeling confident in public speaking in general. But because I literally signed myself up to give a talk in our lab meeting the, like two weeks after that happened so that I don't get in, stuck in my brain that now I can't do public speaking anymore.

But I think that is a thing that helped me and now I'm trying to help others with this as well. We have a couple of people in our lab that competed to kind of say, "Yeah, that might happen. But if you fail, let me tell you from experience, nothing actually happens. No one comes and picks you up and kicks you out of university. Nothing."

Michael (00:29:45)

No, and you're your own biggest critic often. And yeah, it's not as bad as you think it's, as you think it is in the moment. It's great to hear that you've learned from that. Yeah.

Final question that I'd like to ask. On the topic of communication, what would be your very top tip for effective science communication?

Véronique (00:30:08)

Doing it. That is the number one tip. I feel like lots of people miss out because they start saying, "Like, I don't know how to get started". Just do anything, really. There are lots of opportunities to sign up for training as well.

One thing that I've learned a lot and that I encountered a lot was I was always kind of good at public speaking for the reasons that I brought in earlier because I was kind of used to it, because that was me saving my grades.

But then I kind of drew on this and be like well, I'm kind of good at this. I want to be great at it. And I got lots of people asking me, "Why would you go and spend your weekend at this course about public speaking? You're actually good at it." I'm like, "Yeah, but I want to be better at it".

You know, drawing into, like leaning into the thing that you actually want to do. I do whole lots of different classes, trainings, practices. I've took some classes of public speaking that was taught by a theatre person, that teaches you public speaking from a completely different angle.

And they all kind of make you slightly uncomfortable in a safe setting so that you then feel a lot more comfortable in a normal setting. Because 99% of the time, no one actually wants you to feel uncomfortable.

So getting out there, doing things, signing up for things, looking where the opportunities are is the number one tip, I would say.

Jen (00:31:28)

Yeah, I think that's such good advice. And I just love you know, where we began with this idea that this full circle moment that you started listening to this podcast when you were looking for advice on how to improve your science communication. And now here we are, wanting you to be a guest because we know that you have such wisdom and such knowledge and experience to share.

And I'm so proud of you for how that whole 3MT thing panned out. Because for some people that would have been the end of their public speaking career because they just say "I can't cope with the risk of that happening again. It was too difficult." And the fact that you were just able to say, "Well yeah, that wasn't my day. That's fine." And that you've kept going. And now you're putting yourself out there all the time on social media in such a positive and impactful way.

I'm just hugely proud to know you, Véronique. And I'm so glad that we were finally able to get you on the podcast. And we'll invite you back in future so you can tell us some more gems of wisdom about yeah, how to crack it on Instagram, because you're doing a fantastic job.

So thank you for joining us today. It's been a great conversation.

Véronique (00:32:30)

Thank you, Jen. I really appreciate it. That means a lot to me, hearing that from you.

It's like oh. Thank you.

Michael (00:32:38)

Thanks, Véronique. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:32:55)

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