Episode 121 - Interview with Communications Advisor Rebecca Colless

Transcript

Jen (00:00:10)

Well hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm.
As ever, a wonderful place to be because I get to hang out with you, Dr. Michael Wheeler. G'day, Michael.

Michael (00:00:23)

G'day, Jen. It's always a pleasure to be here. And today I have the pleasure of introducing our guest.

We are speaking with Rebecca Colless, who's a research communications advisor in the Faculty of Science here at the University of Melbourne. And I had the pleasure recently of attending a talk that Rebecca gave, all about the, all about persuasive writing and storytelling, which was fascinating. And Rebecca, I have to tell you that I actually took lots of notes, copious notes. I counted them. Five pages of notes in total.

Rebecca (00:01:00)

Glad to hear you found some useful bits in it. That's very good.

Michael (00:01:03)

Yeah, it was great, really good communication advice. So really looking forward to unpacking a lot of that in our chat.

But for those who don't know Rebecca, she has over 30 years experience in communications and science communication. Rebecca started out as a scientist. So she has a Bachelor of Science with honours. And I believe you studied the fruit fly in your honours, is that right?

Rebecca (00:01:27)

Yes, I did, as many geneticists have before me. Yep. Bred them, squished them, extracted their DNA. And I can still identify a male for a female at 30 paces, so...

Michael (00:01:41)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's excellent that you haven't lost that skill. Very important. And Rebecca then went on to do postgrad training in communication and journalism.

And Rebecca's career has spanned probably just about every angle of communication I can think of. She's worked in comms and marketing roles across government agencies, business, non-profits, schools, universities, STEM-based industries, including Questacon and CSIRO. So very varied there.

And Rebecca also founded her own successful business, which was a traveling science show that visited schools around Australia called The Artful Scientists, which I just think is fantastic. And I believe you also ran a historic sourdough bakery called RedBeard Historic Bakery for a time. So wow Rebecca, that is... You know, it's wonderful that you have all of that experience.

Rebecca (00:02:41)

I just can't settle to anything, as you can tell.

Michael (00:02:46)

Well, welcome to the podcast. The first question I'd like to ask is what is a historic bakery?

Rebecca (00:02:54)

So my brother-in-law was the original sourdough baker there. And he and my husband decided they would give it a shot. It had what's called a scotch oven. These were constructed by Scottish engineers across the British Empire, including Australia. They were in every country town across Australia at one point. You would have found them. They're these... They're kind of like a brick igloo, is the best way I can describe it for [a] listening audience. You could park... They've got the footprint of two Volkswagen cars, so huge floor to be on. So you can bake hundreds of loaves in them at a time. And they have enormous amounts of masonry and even some sand used as insulating material in them, so they hold the heat incredibly. Once a year, we had to let it cool down to make some repairs. And it used to take several days to drop to about 50 degrees Celsius. And at that point, someone would climb inside and make some repairs in brief bursts and drinking huge amounts of water along the way.

Michael (00:04:04)

Wow, that's incredible. I mean, yeah.

Rebecca (00:04:08)

Yeah, that's... There's a lot of science to baking.

Michael (00:04:09)

There's a lot of science behind baking. I mean, this is something that... I mean, it shouldn't be surprising but when I learned about it, I was like Oh, you know, it does make sense. The place where I was doing my PhD, the Baker Institute, loads of people were into baking there. And perhaps, you know, I shouldn't have been surprised. It was called the Baker Institute, but for different reasons I guess. Yeah, I really respect people who can bake because it's a skill that I don't have.

Rebecca (00:04:34)

Yeah. So good.

Jen (00:04:37)

Yes. I feel like we could talk about sourdough and the microbiome and bakeries forever, but we do want to start picking your brain about this incredible career you've had in science communication. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast, Bec. I can't believe it's taken us this long to invite you on.

So, as Michael said, you started out in science research, working on fruit flies. But then obviously something happened, which I'd love you to tell us about that led you to, to turn to marketing and comms. So I feel like you have this remarkable background that allows you to see science communication from so many different perspectives and angles. You know, you've done it in all sorts of different ways.

Tell us a bit about... I mean, you said before you can't settle into anything, but tell us what was that pivot from research into initially getting into comms? And what's sort of been your driving force as you've you know, transitioned between all these different roles?

Rebecca (00:05:36)

Yeah, I think I love learning. That's the main thing that I enjoy in life. But what frustrated me in my science education was having to become specialised, because I just wanted to know about lots of different areas of science.

During my honours year, I attended a lunchtime lecture that was given by one Michael Gore, who was the founder of Questacon, the National Science and Technology Centre. And it was an inspiring talk. And he was recruiting basically, for people who might want to move into science communication. And I just thought that sounded like a wonderful escape route from the lab. So I jumped at it.

And the moment I started, the year I went, Oh, this feels much better. This feels much more like me. It was... just allowed me to be much more creative, allowed me to play with words, which I've always loved as well. I love poetry. I love reading. Words just thrill me all the time.

So... And performing was really fun. I hadn't... Well, that's not true. At school I was a debater. I did enjoy an argument. I had two big brothers, so I think that was the training ground for that.

But performing science shows was fun. I loved playing with an audience. When you're facing... I wasn't that much older than them. But I was facing, you know, 150 year nines who were determined to be unimpressed. And I just took it as a challenge to ‘I want to win you over. I want to get you on side. I want to make you laugh. I want you to be curious about something and to go away thinking a bit differently about the world’.

Michael (00:07:35)

Yeah, wow. I mean I can tell, you know, from listening to you speaking that you know, it feels exciting. I feel excited, you know, listening to you describe those experiences, which I guess is a big part of the motivation.

But something that you mentioned in the talk, which I think reflects perhaps your experience and being immersed in the communication world for you know, a long time is a short sentence that I think carries a lot of meaning, which is "Impact depends on communication". I couldn't agree more, but I'd love you to maybe unpack that a little bit for the listeners. How do you see that idea?

Rebecca (00:08:20)

Yeah, impact is a word that gets used a lot in my current role, for example. And how do we define it? What is research impact? Personally, I think of it as -- you are getting new knowledge or perhaps new technology or a new approach or new ideas into the hands of the people who need it most.

And... How else can you do that except by communicating clearly what you've discovered or invented and the value of it? So it's all a communication exercise as far as I can see. How else can you have impact without telling people what it is that they need to know or what solution you are offering to them?

Jen (00:09:09)

So one of the things that you've just touched on in a few different ways then Bec that's really important is the value of research. And I think that's often something that's quite tricky for researchers because generally the sort of framework that you're trained to operate in is this idea that there's a knowledge gap. You know, the justification for doing this work is here's something we don't know.

And as researchers, we get that. That's an absolutely valid reason for doing the work. But so much... You know, or, pretty much all of the time, there's another whole reason for doing the work as well. And there's other value in doing it.

But I think a lot of scientists struggle to, you know... If we kind of say "Well, why should your audience care?" A lot of the researchers get anxious and say "But ooh, I don't know. How can I convince them to care when from the outside it's really obvious what the value of the work is?"

And I think particularly if you're trying to get funding, you really have to be able to state very clearly this is the value proposition. "If you give us money we can do this." I know you've got lots of experience working with researchers. Like what's your advice on how to get better for researchers to be able to articulate the value of what they're doing?

Rebecca (00:10:22)

Yeah look, it is really, really tough. We all do it whenever we apply for a job or a promotion, for example. We have to define, Well, what is my value? What can I do that no one else can offer? Or what can I do in a more effective or efficient way that no one else can do? And you talk to someone about, "Well, this is what I can do differently or this is what I can do really well. This is my particular expertise."

And thinking about pitching it in those sort of more familiar situations can sometimes help, I think. Rather than thinking of a value proposition in a more abstract way and imagining some terrifying I don't know, government department assessing your value or an industry, a whole industry deciding whether your research is of value. That's overwhelming.

Jen (00:11:11)

That sounds terrifying.

Rebecca (00:11:13)

Yeah, it is. So I think it's... I often just try to reduce it to, "Well, how would you explain what you do and why it matters to someone at a barbecue? Someone in a job interview? Just bring it down to a person-to-person conversation about why it matters." That helps a bit sometimes.

I guess the other thing that helps is when I'm working with researchers on developing value propositions is just offering a few formats, offering a few kind of templates that they can work with. And it can be just a starting point because value propositions come in all shapes and sizes. But just saying things like, "Well, we help who to do what by how?" And just trying to fill in those gaps can just start them thinking in that way. Those are the main starting points.

But once you get people rolling, they do know the value of their work. They know why they care about it. And it's usually something that other people can relate to.

Michael (00:12:26)

Yeah, it's like the answer is already inside and you just need to draw it out because you've had to grapple with the value proposition, presumably because you've dedicated you know, years of your life to studying this, you know. So you must see the value in doing that. So yeah, I really hear what you're saying. Practice. Maybe go to more barbecues so you can practice answering that question.

Rebecca (00:12:51)

Yeah, yeah.

Michael (00:12:53)

One of the things that stood out in your talk that I remember writing down is this idea of being persuasive as well. So I guess it's good to have your clear value proposition, but you also need to be generally persuasive in how you communicate.

So you know, when you said that you like a good argument or that you used to like a good argument, I mean I guess that's kind of carried through right? But now you're bringing those skills over into arguing for, for funding. And one of the things you said there is "you need to try and win both hearts and minds" which I really liked.

And you mentioned something I hadn't heard of before, Aristotle's rhetorical triangle. You know, an idea should appeal to logic, emotion, but also credibility, the credibility of why are you the right person to do this? Why do you think it's so important to you know, touch on all of those points. You know, appealing to the rational and emotional side, you know, when we're trying to be persuasive?

Rebecca (00:14:03)

Yeah, look, when we make decisions, we do it both based on what we think and what we feel. And then we are also judging the person who is trying to persuade us to make that decision, or the company or the business or whatever. I think unfortunately, we train scientists to, rather than work with those three sides of the triangle, to really live on one side and that's the logic a lot. And they're [almost], they're really discouraged from bringing emotion or values into their work.

So I encourage... If you're going to persuade someone, you really have to appeal to their values, their feelings about the world, their feelings of being included or consulted. There are all sorts of things that come into decisions.

And then that means having to inject some emotion into the way we talk about or write about our science or our research, which is not something that many researchers are comfortable with.

Jen (00:15:07)

No.

Rebecca (00:15:08)

But it's honestly, it's something that I have used when I'm writing. And I've written a lot of successful grant applications. I inject them with emotion. I inject them with the values. I explain, you know, how we feel about this and, or how we should feel differently about things.

And I think the other side of the triangle, that building your own credibility is something that researchers struggle with as well because there is a culture in research to avoid talking about yourself or talking yourself up. There's a kind of a cringe. People just don't want to say, "Oh, I'm... I'm actually really good at this. I'm a proper expert. I know my stuff".

Michael (00:15:58)

Yeah.

Rebecca (00:15:59)

I think in business and in marketing, people are much more comfortable with saying, you know, "We are the top sourdough bakery in regional Victoria", for example.

But researchers, that's almost beaten out of you. It's seen as embarrassing or yeah, just not okay to talk yourself up.

Jen (00:16:20)

Tall poppies.

Rebecca (00:16:22)

Yeah. Yeah, and that undermines your persuasive ability. Because if you can't give your credentials with confidence, and I'm not saying you know, create spin about yourself. I'm saying just own your expertise and be clear about yeah, the fact that I've been doing this for years and I have quite good knowledge of this area.

So that makes you sound trustworthy if you explain, if you give evidence. The application of evidence varies enormously. When researchers talk about their science, they are really... When I'm trying to develop a media release for example, and people say, "Oh no. Oh no. You've got to take that word out. That's overstating the claim. Our research didn't show that exactly. It showed just this." So they're very precise about the evidence of their science. But they get sloppy sometimes when it comes to evidence for the market value of something. And they can sometimes make wild claims about the need for something without having done much market research at all.

So it's really interesting to me where researchers draw the line. Where they are prepared to you know, make a claim and where they're not, and where they're prepared to use persuasive techniques and where they're not. So it's something that I think all scientists should think about a bit more and examine like how they talk about their research.

Jen (00:17:51)

How interesting that you've had the opportunity to work with so many different researchers. It's, you know, creating so many different outputs and to kind of see those continuums of where accuracy is absolutely non-negotiable versus "Ahh, I think our research is going to lead to this".

Rebecca (00:18:10)

That's right. Yep, there's a range out there.

Jen (00:18:11)

So what you really... Some of the things that you're touching on which I think is super important is around credibility and trust and you know, the people or the organisation that you are pitching for support from, whether that's you want them to you know, sign off on your paper or give you money, whatever. You know, there's all of these things that we are trying to convince our readers or our audience of.

And Michael was telling me a little bit about the talk that he attended of yours recently. And he was saying that your advice is that you've got to really anticipate and bring up potential criticisms, downfalls, limitations quite early. So that you're defensively rebutting, you know, what your reviewer or your, you know, whoever's assessing you might say before they think about it. And I totally understand the logic of that.

But I also think there's a risk there, right? You don't want to spend all of your time on negatives. You don't want to make too many points about the things that might not be perfect because no research is ever going to be perfect. And you also don't want to come across as defensive because that then also communicates a particular... I don't know, a position that you find yourself in.

I'd just love to hear your thoughts more on how do you do a good job of being upfront about where the limitations might be while also maintaining credibility and trust and not coming across as, you know, as defensive.

Rebecca (00:19:41)

Yeah, you're right. It is a balance. I think it's super important though, to proactively rebut. And I think that's where I was successful in grant writing because... And again, like any good communication, it comes down to empathy. It comes down to putting yourself in the audience's position. So maybe it's a grant assessor's shoes you've got to stand in and thinking, What are they going to think? If I write this sentence, is that going to provoke a question in their minds? And it might be, Therefore, I have to change the sentence. I have to provide additional information.

I don't think you have to go negative necessarily. It's not like a confessional where you have to go, Oh, we have all these shortcomings and all these holes and... You can actually use that as a, you know, "This is a first step". And then with, you know, "It's part of an ongoing research strategy where the next thing we'd like to do is... and fill some of these holes. We're working towards strengthening this idea or this approach or this new method, whatever it is".

So it's kind of showing an exciting vision of "We're just starting out. We're aware of current limitations, but we have plans for addressing those in the future". So there's no harm in starting to you know, build an expectation that we'll be coming back for more funding for the next step, you know. So it is how you express it. And it doesn't have to be in a negative way. It can be in a kind of "We've got a vision for how we make progress here".

Michael (00:21:28)

Yeah, it does make a lot of sense. I think, you know, writing grants at the moment, that's something that maybe I could probably do a little bit better. Just putting myself I suppose in the shoes of a hard-nosed scientist who's you know, they're really comparing, you know, lots of excellent applications and really trying to think hard about what are the limitations here. But I guess the trick there is addressing them in a non-defensive way, which I think is excellent advice.

Rebecca (00:22:02)

Yes.

Michael (00:22:06)

And something else that I think you mentioned that I thought was really excellent when you were talking about the power of storytelling, you know, to you know, be persuasive. You know, to do all of these things that we're talking about. But to have some narrative in there, in the way you're leading people, you know, from the start of your grant application to the end.

And you had a really good example. I can't remember exactly the context, but you said there was a room full of like really noisy children...

Rebecca (00:22:39)

Oh yeah.

Michael (00:22:40)

And somebody whispered into the microphone "Once upon a time", and the whole room went still. And that, you know, that's an example I suppose of the power of storytelling because it's, you know, synonymous with storytelling.

So why do you think storytelling is so powerful? And how can scientists weave more storytelling, you know, into something, especially like a grant application where you have to have, you know, rigor and clarity?

Rebecca (00:23:10)

Yeah, look, storytelling, the power of storytelling, there's actually a lot of science that shows us how effective storytelling is. There's science about what happens in our brains when we listen to a story and how we really identify with the main character, the point of view character in the story, also called protagonist in the story.

We've probably all had that experience when you are listening to or reading a really good book, and you go into the world of the book and you become the main character, and you're actually in the forest or on the ship with them or whatever. And then you identify with them and you start to feel what they're feeling, care about what they care about, believe what they believe. And if you can do that to a listener, then you are really going to be a powerful persuader.

You can actually tell your own story about why you do what you do and what positive change you want to make in the world, what's brought you here. Was it, you know, you're investigating cancer treatments because someone [you're close] to has experienced cancer? Is it that you had a peculiar moment where two apparently disconnected things came together and you made a connection between two things? It might have been, "Well, I was in a car park and I noticed something blowing across my windscreen and that made me think about a whole new way to build molecules". I don't know. I'm making that up completely.

But, I mean, it's giving that background to your own story is one way to build it in. The other thing that you can do is tell the story of the people or the animals or you know, whoever's lives you want to change or improve, you can tell their stories and you can explain what it's like to be them now and your vision for how their story could be different, how you could improve things for them.

And it's about... Also, making it interesting. Again, it's not what researchers are trained to do. But actually talking about some of the trials and challenges and difficulties that you face along the way because that's plot, you know. That's what happens. That's what makes a novel interesting is when you go, Oh, they've met a foe. And they've got, you know, they've got buddies with them who are going to help them overcome this. And that's storytelling.

And that is, when I... In that talk I talked about the hero's journey which is a very standard in western culture, very standard pattern to all our great stories. But when I looked at it, I went, Well, any scientist would relate to this. You have a mentor. You know, you get called to some adventure. You have a mentor. You meet buddies along the trail. You face trials and tribulations. You get better. You build your skills and your understanding. You face some huge challenge. You overcome it. You defeat the dragon or the witch or whatever, you know. And you triumph. And then you go back to the beginning and you go around the loop again. And that's just research to me. That sounds like the life of a researcher.

Jen (00:26:27)

Yeah, I always share the hero's journey when any workshop I'm running, particularly with PhD students, I'm like, "This is a visual of your PhD right now". And anyone who's never seen it before, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Look at the parts of the hero's journey. That is exactly what a PhD is all about." So yeah, I agree completely.

Rebecca (00:26:47)

Yeah, so there's lots of opportunities for storytelling.

Michael (00:26:50)

Yeah, it's funny because I completely agree with you know, everything you're saying about the power of storytelling. But really, I came to really understand the true power of storytelling, you know, on having a toddler. And when, you know, they don't want to get dressed or whatever it is, if you say, "Do you want to listen to a story about a little boy who got dressed?" Yes. It really works. It's amazing. It's really amazing.

Rebecca (00:27:16)

Absolutely. Yep, yep. We persuaded our kids to do some very long bushwalks by telling very long stories, and feeding them smarties at key moments if the plot wasn't enough to keep them, keep them plodding along.

Jen (00:27:38)

Sugar and stories is like a match made in heaven, right? You can get people to do anything if they've got those two things.

Rebecca (00:27:44)

I think so. I really think so.

Michael (00:27:47)

Well, I mean, speaking of plodding along, we have reached the time in the podcast where we do need to switch gears now a little bit. And we have some quick questions that we'd like to ask Rebecca just to round out the interview. So I hope you're ready.

Rebecca (00:28:11)

I'll just get my buzzer, hang on.

Michael (00:28:12)

I should really, you know. We should have a buzzer or you know, we should...

These are the hard-hitting questions now that, everything else is warm up.

So first quick question I'd like to ask is if you could instantly become an expert in anything else what would it be?

Rebecca (00:28:28)

Actually, podcasting. There we go. I think... I studied radio journalism and I think it's a great medium. So I'd love to know more about podcasting.

But you know, it's a crowded market. So I should probably leave it to you guys.

Jen (00:28:43)

Just come and play with us more often. Then it's a win-win for everybody.

Rebecca (00:28:45)

Yeah, sure.

Jen (00:28:47)

That sounds, sounds like a good plan.

Next question, Bec. Do you have a particular daily habit that you feel really improves the way you work?

Rebecca (00:28:59)

I walk to work in the mornings and I find that just sets me up for the day. Starting my work day with some exercise and... It's coming up again, a podcast on the way.

And I find I arrive at work, my brain's awake. I've been listening to stories on the way to work, so I'm ready to work as a communicator.

And just that mindful left, right, left, right, being out in the world, breathing in some air and looking at some flowers on the way is just a great way to start the workday.

Jen (00:29:32)

Hear, hear.

Michael (00:29:35)

Hear, hear, yeah.

Okay, so next question is, what is your all-time favourite movie, book or TV show?

Rebecca (00:29:44)

Oh, wow. Okay, I loved the Indiana Jones stories when I was a teenager. They were just ripping yarns. I still enjoy watching them. Not so much the later ones. But man, that first one.

Jen (00:30:03)

Yeah.

Rebecca (00:30:04)

I just... That was, it blew my mind. I think, I don't know how old I was. I was in the middle of high school I think when that came out, so that'll age me.

I just loved it. What a story.

Jen (00:30:17)

Yeah, I feel like they don't quite make movies like that anymore. And a lot of change.

Rebecca (00:30:20)

No, and you know...

I don't think there was any CGI in the first one.

Jen (00:30:26)

No, no.

Michael (00:30:27)

Really? Wow.

Rebecca (00:30:29)

I don't think so. So that's pretty mind-blowing. Yep.

Jen (00:30:33)

Yes, agreed.

On a totally different tack, Bec, have you ever had a big setback in your career?

Rebecca (00:30:42)

I think one thing that I've faced a few times, which has been challenging, is that people put me back in the science communication box too easily.

And I feel like honestly, communication skills are transferable. And if you can communicate about quantum physics, you can probably communicate about anything.

A few times I've been turned down for jobs because people went, "No, your background's science. You should stay in science". And, yeah, that's been a bit frustrating at times.

Jen (00:31:18)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like research communication or as you say, kind of any communication, it's the same skill set.

Rebecca (00:31:27)

Yep, yep.

Michael (00:31:30)

Okay, final question that I'd like to ask is if you had to pick, what would be your very top tip for effective communication?

Rebecca (00:31:40)

Empathise with the audience as much as you can. Start there, always. Think about them.

You know, think about, try and absolutely stand where they stand and really try to stay there as much as possible when you're writing or drafting or you know, talking.

And I think try to understand what they need and want, rather than... A lot of bad communication happens when you're thinking about what you need and want. So yeah, it's always empathy.

Jen (00:32:14)

Definitely.

Michael (00:32:17)

Yeah. Well said.

Jen (00:32:20)

Yeah, I think that's so true. It's a matter of switching your thinking from this being all about me to actually this is all about my audience, and they most likely need something completely different to what I need.

Well, I feel like we've had a massive win-win today by finally getting you on Let's Talk SciComm, Bec. Because we've known for a long time that you've had this incredibly diverse and amazing career. And I just think everyone in the Faculty of Science at Melbourne Uni is so fortunate to have you and your talents.

Jen (00:32:49)

Oh, that's very kind.

Jen (00:32:20)

So thank you for the work that you do.

Rebecca (00:32:53)

Oh, cheers. Look, you know, I'm very grateful to have the role I have. It's endlessly interesting, endlessly interesting. And that's the main thing I want out of work.

And if I can bring value to it, and I think I can. Like I think I can help researchers, then that gives me a huge sense of purpose as well, which is the other thing I need in a job.

Jen (00:33:15)

Yeah, definitely. Well, it's been brilliant to have you on today. Thank you so much for making the time.

And yeah, I look forward to when our paths next cross. Thank you.

Rebecca (00:33:25)

Absolutely, my pleasure. Thank you.

Michael (00:33:28)

Thanks, Rebecca. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:33:45)

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd love you to tell a friend about the podcast or leave us a review. And you can reach out to us on social media.

And we're very excited to announce that we're launching a new newsletter called the ChitChat. So if you are interested in receiving some hot tips, or advice on science communication, or to know what Jen and I have been reading or watching or interested in lately, or to just hear about some interesting science communication events that are happening, then this is a newsletter for you and we would love you to subscribe to it. So check out the link in the show notes or our posts on Instagram. And thank you so much to Ben, Dave, Restia and Wahyu for helping us get this newsletter set up and established.

And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.