Episode 127 - Interview with cell biologist and science communicator Tina Katsaros

Transcript

Jen (00:00:09)

Hello everybody, what a lovely day it is today to welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm, the loveliest place to be today. Because as always, I get to hang out with my friend, my colleague, the wonderful wonderful Dr. Michael Wheeler. G'day Michael.

Michael (00:00:27)

G'day Jen, how are you doing?

Jen (00:00:28)

I'm really well. The sun is shining, we have a brilliant guest. I'm just, I'm feeling good, I'm excited, how about you?

Michael (00:00:38)

I'm feeling very excited. I do love the sunshine. And I'm also excited that I get to introduce our guest today, Jen. I'm very thrilled to introduce Tina Katsaros. And Tina is a final year PhD student at La Trobe University here in Melbourne, where she's researching chronic fatigue syndrome. You know, it's something we've heard a lot about. It's been in the media a lot, but there's also a lot of confusion around it. So we're really keen for Tina to educate us a little bit on the topic.

But in addition to doing fascinating research, Tina is incredibly passionate about science communication, which is how I first came across Tina. Tina was the main organizer of a science communication retreat Jen, a whole retreat dedicated to science communication.

Jen (00:01:28)

Whoo! I love it!

Michael (00:01:30)

So how good is that? At La Trobe. And I was lucky enough to be one of the speakers. It was a really fantastic event. So thank you Tina for inviting me to be part of that.

For those of you who don't know, Tina is also very active sharing science on social media. And Tina even took part in La Trobe's Visualize Your Thesis competition. So, you know, go and check out Tina's 60 second video about her research, which I believe won the People's Choice Award and overall runner up. So congratulations.

Tina (00:02:08)

Thank you. It's impressive.

Michael (00:02:10)

Yeah, that is excellent. It's something that I haven't done. I've always been so impressed by the 60 second Visualise Your Thesis. So kudos to you, Tina.

But you've also been involved in quite a lot of things during your PhD. You know, from committees, attending conferences, teaching and demonstrating, mentoring and taking part in programs like STEMpals and In2science.

So we've got a lot to talk about. You know, you also did your PhD during the COVID, post-COVID era. And you know, and you're balancing a lot. So Tina, thank you so much for joining us, I'm looking forward to having a chat today.

Tina (00:02:55)

Yeah, me too. I'm excited for it.

Jen (00:02:58)

Yeah, we can't wait, Tina. I really love it when we get to people... Sorry, to have the opportunity to speak with people like you who are at a relatively early career stage.

But you're already carving out all of this time to commit to science communication activities, which when I was at your stage as a PhD student, I don't think I'd even heard the word science communication. I didn't even know what it was. I think it's just fantastic.

Tina (00:03:21)

Yeah, it's definitely something I'm so passionate about. So it's... Yeah, I love the chance that I, the opportunity that I have to kind of do it, I guess. Yeah.

Jen (00:03:29)

Yeah. Fantastic.

Michael (00:03:31)

Something that I've always been really fascinated by is how do people end up picking a PhD topic? You know, when I was an undergrad student, I'd hear about different PhD topics and I'd go, Wow, that's so specific, but so interesting.

So, you know, I'd love to ask you... I mean, first of all, you got interested in science. Was there a moment there where you realised, you know, science is for me? And then leading from that then, how did you end up dedicating four years of your life studying chronic fatigue syndrome for a PhD?

Tina (00:04:07)

Yes. So I actually had a different route to science, I guess. I started... Well, I didn't start. I had my... In year 12, we were choosing our subjects for what we wanted to do in university. And I was actually going to do architecture. I hadn't thought about science really. I loved it in school, but I hadn't really thought about it.

And then I ended up doing biology and I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with everything about it. It was just, I was like, Yeah, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I just loved it that much. So that's kind of how I ended up doing science. I decided architecture was not as, wasn't as passionate about it. And so I ended up doing a Bachelor of Biomedicine.

And then second year we entered COVID. So that was a real big struggle I guess, adjusting to going completely online learning. And one of the main struggles was that we, I hadn't had the opportunity to do lab work. So I finished my bachelor degree and I wanted to head into research, but I had no lab experience.

So I was like, Okay, I'll do an honours year. And usually for honours, they hand out like a pamphlet with all the supervisors and all the projects. And I actually ended up being really interested in a project looking at Parkinson's disease. So it was looking at calcium signaling and Parkinson's disease and how that's affected. And so I joined the lab at the time.

And my lab, we do Parkinson's disease, but we also do ME/CFS or Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome. So I was in the lab doing Parkinson's disease. But in lab meetings and presentations, I was hearing all about ME/CFS. And to be completely honest, I'd never heard anything about it before. It was completely new to me, knew nothing about it. And I was like, Hang on a second. This is something that should be talked about way more. This is so interesting. There's so many questions here, so many unanswered things. And I got really really interested in the research behind it.

And it just so happened that as I was finishing my honours degree, my lab, the lab, my supervisor was granted a project, PhD project from an organisation in the UK, ME Research UK. And she asked if I was happy to do it and I jumped at the opportunity. So that's how I ended up in ME/CFS research, yeah.

Jen (00:06:21)

Yeah. Well, you are clearly an impressive researcher and already a fantastic student, otherwise there's no way you would have been offered that opportunity. So I think that's really awesome, Tina. Because as we all know, funding in research is really really hard to come by. So yeah, having that opportunity is incredible.

I feel like Tina, probably there's some people listening who unlike you, who you hadn't come across chronic fatigue syndrome earlier, who either have had that diagnosis themselves or a loved one has had that diagnosis and are desperate to know kind of the latest on the topic. Can you tell us maybe in a nutshell what you've found in your PhD and what exactly is chronic fatigue syndrome for people who don't know about it? And what are the questions that you've been exploring in your research?

Tina (00:07:07)

It's one of the most devastating diseases, if you ask me. It's usually a lifelong disease. And it's, one of the two main symptoms is a debilitating chronic fatigue that doesn't get better with rest. And then also something called Post-exertional malaise, which is usually when you, if you exert yourself in some kind of physical, mental or emotional way, you suffer from what's called a crash. So it's like a worsening of symptoms or even a decrease in your baseline essentially, or new symptoms arising.

And it's quite devastating. Usually about a quarter of the people diagnosed with ME/CFS are completely bedbound. So they just can't live life normally, essentially. Or they have to find a new way to live life. It's yeah, it's just devastating. And it's got one of the lowest quality life scores of basically any disease. It's devastating. And it's just not talked [enough about] in my opinion.

Jen (00:08:05)

Which makes it even worse. That I don't think there's as much of this now, but certainly historically, there's been all this stigma that people were making it up, right?

Tina (00:08:14)

Oh, 100%, yeah.

Jen (00:08:15)

And it's just devastating for somebody who is in that position, to have people questioning whether it's real or not, just makes my heart break.

Tina (00:08:21)

Yeah, of course. Yes, still to this day. Like I've met patients or I've interacted with patients before online who take years to get a diagnosis because it takes that long to find a doctor who's willing to help them find the answers that they're looking for. It's just devastating.

And luckily... Well, luckily, not really, but with long COVID, there's a lot more awareness around it and a lot more doctors believing it. So I guess that has helped a lot. But it's just, it's terrible that it's had to take that in order for them to be taken seriously. So yeah, it's just, it's just so devastating. And to see people online, you know, struggling every day with even their family believing them, loved ones, it's just so devastating to see.

Jen (00:09:04)

And so what aspect of this condition have you specifically been working on in your PhD?

Tina (00:09:11)

So kind of pre my PhD, we had another PhD project that was looking at understanding causal mechanisms basically. And so we found, our lab found a number of abnormalities essentially in how these cells are producing energy. And so my project is a continuation of that. So I'm trying to establish cause and effect, like relationships between these abnormalities.

So we all know that, we know that all these abnormalities are related. We know that they're all involved in energy production. But it's trying to see if there's a causal abnormality maybe. So is one of them causing all the rest or is a combination of a few? So it's trying to yeah, kind of nut down that relationship a little bit.

Michael (00:09:53)

Yeah, fascinating. So have you gotten results yet? Are you still in the data collection phase?

Tina (00:10:00)

Still in the data collection phase. So my project's kind of focused at looking at one aspect, one abnormality. So it's one of the master signaling protein kinases in the cells called mTORC1. So it's involved in nutrient and energy sensing. And I'm trying to kind of looking at that in isolation, understanding how it affects the other abnormalities. And I've got some pretty interesting results. So I'm happy to yeah, write up the pieces eventually for that.

Michael (00:10:32)

Okay. Well, we'll be waiting for you to be posting about that on social media. That is really interesting looking at the cellular level and you know, how cells produce energy and all of that.

And you know, as you say, it has been something that's been in the media a lot because of long COVID. And I suppose that's, it's a shame that it's taken that. But from your perspective now, if there's been this like surge in research on the topic, what are some of the things that you're most excited about in terms of development in you know, on the research?

Tina (00:11:10)

Well actually, there was a really big advancement I guess that happened recently with a project called DecodeME, which was a GWAS study looking at you know, genetic risk factors. And we actually found, I think there was eight from memory. Yeah, genetic risk factors I guess. So it's kind of interesting to see where that's going to lead in the research. I'm really excited to see what comes of that.

Jen (00:11:34)

And I'm completely naive in this area, Tina. Do we think that it is mostly genetic or mostly environmental exposure or no idea or some combination of the two?

Tina (00:11:45)

It'd definitely be a combination of the two. So there's a lot of, there's like, you know, usually you, when a trigger for the disease is some kind of infection, that's the most common kind of trigger for it. But there are things like even environmental toxins or you know, just some kind of like physical stress on the body, even surgery sometimes that can cause, that can trigger it. So it would be definitely a combination of them.

Michael (00:12:08)

Yeah.

Jen (00:12:08)

Interesting.

Tina (00:12:10)

Yeah. Because it's, there's no clear genetic link as of yet except like you know, before this study. So yeah, I'm assuming it's going to be a combination of the two, yeah.

Jen (00:12:21)

So Tina, you've just done a great job of explaining some science to us, which is the perfect segue into asking you about science communication. Because as I said, when I was a PhD researcher, I... It wasn't on my radar that explaining what I was doing to different audiences might be a valuable thing for me or for them.

So tell us a bit about, you know, I just heard you organised this science communication retreat and invited the brilliant Michael to come and speak. Like what inspired this event? And yeah, how do you see science communication kind of dovetailing with you being a researcher?

Tina (00:12:57)

Well, in my opinion, science communication is one of the most important parts of science.

Jen (00:13:00)

Whoo-Hoo! Yes, yes, yes.

Tina (00:13:01)

I mean, we communicate science in all different ways. I mean, through teaching, through papers, through interviews like this. It's just the most important part of it because it's how you raise awareness of what you're doing and what you found.

And it really, I got really really interested in it during COVID, kind of seeing all the misinformation out there. And it kind of made me realise like Wow, there's just a real disconnect between the general public and scientists because it's just not accessible really. Like how is the general public supposed to read a paper and understand what they're reading? Well, if they don't have like you know, a science or a medical background.

So I guess that's kind of where I was like, All right, this is really important. Like, it's really important in order to bridge that gap between science and the general public. And, you know, if you think about it, the general public is who funds research, [whether] it's through taxpayer money or whether it's through donations to philanthropic organisations. You know, it's the general public funding research. So they deserve to know what's happening. So that's kind of my real drive for it. So I spent my...

Jen (00:14:00)

Oh my gosh, you are so speaking our language Tina.

Tina (00:14:04)

Glad to hear it. So yeah, I got really really interested in science communications during my PhD. And you know, wanting to raise awareness for ME/CFS as well. Because you know, I had no idea about it and now I'm an ME/CFS researcher. So if I can bring just you know, one more researcher into the field, that's, that's another person, you know what I mean? It's just great to build that up.

So yes, I got really interested in SciComm. And I decided while I was president of the HDR committee of my department, I wanted to organise this really intensive two-day retreat that was just kind of basically like a whole day of skills. Like what do you as a researcher, what kind of skills do you need in order to advance your science communication? So that was written, that was through presentations, just everything basically, yeah.

Michael (00:14:51)

And I probably didn't, I didn't really get a chance to ask but I will now, you know. What was kind of the impact of that?

I mean, it's so great that you've done this intensive on science communication. How did the students find it?

Tina (00:15:05)

We actually got so much positive feedback from it. They loved everything. They loved every session about it. 'Cause it was just a lot of different perspectives, I guess? And a lot of students kind of just get feedback from their supervisors, not really from many other people.

So to have you know, people that we don't really have experience... like we haven't met before coming in and giving their perspective on presentations and how to like your skills in terms of giving presentations, it was just... Yeah, it was, it was really good. Everyone loved it. Everyone had really great feedback to give and we actually ended up running it again this year. Not quite as intensive but we ended up running another session this year on communicate. On yeah, Scicomm.

Michael (00:15:41)

Oh, fantastic. Yeah, it's so great.

Jen (00:15:44)

So good.

Michael (00:15:45)

And it's something that I think I kind of slowly discovered that, you know, science communication is, is a thing. Isn't it funny how like we, you know, kind of stumble across it? But then once you realise how important it is, you're like, Wow, why doesn't everyone think this is important from so early on?

But there's a lot of opportunities then that I suppose can open up when you're pursuing science communication and trying to build your skills. You know, competitions like Visualise Your Thesis. I mentioned in the opening I'm particularly curious about that one because I've never taken part in it before. And you have, and you did really really well Tina.

So for those who don't know, could you kind of explain the idea behind it and then the process that you go through to create that video? I mean you're explaining some complex science in a really short amount of time. What? How did you find the experience? What did you, what did you learn from that?

Tina (00:16:48)

It was actually so difficult because you have exactly 60 seconds. You cannot go a second over. So it was really hard to figure out, you know. I could go on and on about my PhD and everything I've done and everything I found, but how do you condense that into a minute? You know what I mean?

And even my disease, Myalgic encephalomyelitis, chronic fatigue syndrome. I'm like, there goes 10 seconds already.

Michael (00:17:08)

10 seconds gone, yeah.

Tina (00:17:10)

So that was really really difficult, but interesting to do because it made me try to think about my project in a completely different way. Like how do I really condense this down as much as I can?

And I loved it. I loved trying to figure that out. I also wanted to make it really impactful because ME/CFS is so severe and so not discussed enough. I actually reached out online for patients to send through videos of themselves, just like short clips of what life is like with ME/CFS. So I included that in the video as well when I was describing the disease. And I thought that was really really impactful.

And then towards the end when I was talking about my research, I included little cartoon drawings because that's just my little style. I always add them to presentations. You know, when I did like my 3MT, I did like a big orchestra with every instrument being like different pathways in the cell to kind of describe like you know, the complex, you know, signaling pathways that I'm looking at. And it was yeah, I just, I love the little cartoon style.

Michael (00:18:13)

Yeah.

Jen (00:18:14)

Well, we'll definitely link to your VYT video in the show notes so that everyone can see it. It sounds amazing. And how powerful to include lived patient experiences in the video. As you say, when you've only got 60 seconds, I think that's... Yeah, that's amazing.

But listening to you Tina reminds me of something that I think Michael and I both really struggle with. And that is when we get invited to run workshops on some aspect of science communication, you're so conscious that you're in a room of really busy people, whether they're graduate researchers, whether they're more senior researchers.

You know, the sense is these people are already at capacity. They are already working so hard and their to-do lists are crazy. We're coming in and saying, "Well, on top of all of that, here's this other thing that we think is really important".

You've obviously made your own decision that prioritising communication activities is something you want to do. So I'm really interested to hear just, you know, you're a PhD researcher. It's a really busy time. How do you go about balancing both doing the research and sharing the research? And you know, do you kind of have some magic tips for the rest of us about how to not burn out while you've got lots of balls in the air and doing lots of different things? Because clearly they are both a really high priority for you, but that comes at a cost, right? Everything takes time.

Tina (00:19:31)

That's correct. I don't really have any kind of tips. I guess it's kind of a different way of seeing science communications. If you think about it, everything you do is science communications. Whether it's you know, just talking with someone that you've met at a conference or whether it's... Because you know, you need an elevator pitch for that. You've got you know, an x amount of time to talk to this person. How are you going to present your research in that minute?

So it's you know, whether it's a paper, you need to make sure that it's as accessible as it can be. Are you using too much you know, medical jargon in there? Is it easy to understand? Is it easy to read? Does it flow well? Teaching, you know, these are undergraduates. They might not even, you know, you need to give them your full attention. And uhh sorry, you need to grab their full attention, how do you kind of manage that?

So I guess it was just kind of viewing it in a different way, if that makes sense. And understanding that science communications, it's not just important, it's everywhere. Everything you do is some kind of science communication. So that was why it's so important to me I guess. Because you know, if you can master it then you've mastered basically every kind of involvement that your research has except for the lab work.

Jen (00:20:37)

Yeah, I think that's a really powerful way of looking at it. And that really underpins the work that Michael and I and our team does, that studying communication skills and developing communication skills isn't this kind of optional extra on the side. It should be a fundamental part of all science degrees.

Because as you become a scientist, you also need to be somebody who... yeah, can jump at any opportunity to share your research with different people and in different ways. But I think it still takes time and it still takes energy. And I just think it's fantastic that you are really embracing all aspects of being a scientist and being a communicator. I think it's fantastic.

Tina (00:21:15)

Thank you.

Michael (00:21:17)

Yeah, great to really diversify your experience I think as a PhD student, and no better way to do that than by pursuing science communication opportunities. Variety is the spice of life in lots of different areas. So, you know, it's going to be really interesting then seeing where your career progresses Tina, with all of this experience that you are getting.

So I do want to ask the million dollar question. After your PhD, what's next for you? You know, where do you see yourself going? Are you going to pursue a career in research? In the same area? And how do you think science communication might continue to play a role going forward?

Tina (00:22:01)

Yeah. So that's a very interesting question. And my answer is it kind of depends whether there's money available or not. I'd love to stay in research. I would love to. It's my passion. It's always, it's what I wanted to do since I finished year 12. But I really would love to stay in ME/CFS research if I can. But again, it also depends if there's any money available for that. So that's the, that's the million dollar question I guess.

But if not, then I would love to find a job involving science communication somehow, whether it's like a medical science liaison job or something like that. I just, I love being able to communicate science to audiences, whether yeah, that's the general public, whether it's you know, patients or yeah. It's just what I'm passionate about. So I'd love to find a way to continue that. But yeah, research is ideally what I'd like to do. And it does depend.

Michael (00:22:54)

Yeah. It's great to hear. I mean, you know, you're mentioning money there. And I guess as a PhD student, you're kind of a little bit protected from that. You know, you're not really expected to be writing grants, but I'm sure it's something that you're aware of, low kind of success rates in funding.

Yeah. How do you kind of feel about all of that? You know, as you finish your PhD I suppose, you'll be thinking about that a lot more. But it sounds like you're... It's not putting you off giving it a go?

Tina (00:23:25)

No, it's not necessarily putting me off, but it is making me a little bit looking at other avenues I guess, in case it doesn't work out that way.

But, you know, who knows? Down the line, there might be an opportunity where I could come back. It's not necessarily one way or the other. So yeah, that it's...

Michael (00:23:40)

Yeah, I think that's wise. I mean, like the way I think about it is that people often talk about job security or a lack of job security. You know, as a researcher, you're kind of dependent on grants if you're focusing purely on research.

But actually, we get a lot of security from our skill set. And if we do have to get another job like you mentioned. You know, maybe medical science liaison or you know, something else? It's the skill set that gives us security. So yeah, I mean you're doing a fantastic job building your skill set with all the things that you've been involved with. So yeah, I'm sure everything will work out.

Tina (00:24:19)

Thank you.

Jen (00:24:20)

We're your cheerleaders here, Tina. We'll be cheering you on from the side.

Tina (00:24:24)

Thank you.

Michael (00:24:26)

Yeah. But we are getting to the time in the interview Tina where we would like to switch gears a little bit and we would like to round out the interview with our quick questions.

So some light-hearted questions. Are you ready?

Tina (00:24:40)

I'm as ready as I'll ever be.

Jen (00:24:42)

That's what we like to hear.

Michael (00:24:49)

Alrighty, Tina. First question is: What topic in science do you always feel excited about?

Tina (00:24:56)

ME/CFS research.

Jen (00:25:03)

Which I think is a really lovely response because yes, it's an obvious response. But you told us early in the podcast that, you know, this was something you didn't really know anything about and you hadn't really come across and you entered your lab studying Parkinson's. And I just think it's wonderful that your passion and your skills have ended up devoted to this condition that we clearly need to know a lot more about and need to have a better understanding of. So I hope that passion sees you through many more years of very well-funded research, Tina. That's my wish for you.

So thinking more about your communication skills, we're interested to ask you, is there a particular communication skill that you are working on improving at the moment?

Tina (00:25:45)

So [I'm] actually writing up papers at the moment. So I guess it's trying to make it as accessible as I can.

So, you know, I'm rereading things. I'm like is this? If I was someone who didn't have too much of a science background, am I understanding what I'm reading here? So kind of leaving behind that medical jargon as much as I can, as much as is reasonable and trying to make it you know, as plain English as it can be.

Michael (00:26:06)

Yeah, that's great.

Jen (00:26:07)

My gosh. Imagine if all papers were written in a more accessible way. My life would be so much better. I would be so happy. I read a lot of papers in a lot of different fields. And oh my gosh, sometimes it's hard work.

Tina (00:26:19)

That's another thing as well. You know, someone entering from a different field, are they able to understand what I'm actually saying here? As I'm like, have I explained it well? Yeah. Because that's another thing as well.

Michael (00:26:27)

Yeah. I mean, so much about it is putting yourself in the shoes of other people and just trying to read it from their perspective. So it's so great that you're working on that.

But it is hard work and you do need to be, you know, fueled. So next question is... Does coffee, tea or something else fuel you? I got a bit excited there with that question.

Tina (00:26:54)

Coffee? Something else?

Michael (00:26:55)

Yeah.

Tina (00:26:56)

I actually am not a fan of coffee at all. I love the smell.

Jen (00:26:59)

Me neither.

Tina (00:27:00)

Like as soon as someone... Like if I'm at a coffee machine, Oh, love it. Smells great. Just don't want to taste it.

But nothing else really does. I don't drink energy drinks. I don't drink... I mean, I drink hot chocolates, but rarely. So that's pretty much it. I just drink water.

Jen (00:27:18)

You and I are basically the same person Tina. I'm exactly the same. People get so distressed when you go somewhere like, "What can I offer you? Tea, coffee, whatever."

You're like, "Can I have a glass of water, please?"

Tina (00:27:28)

Tea in my opinion is just dirty water really. I've added something to it to just make it dirty.

Jen (00:27:32)

Yeah, I agree. It's disgusting.

Michael (00:27:32)

Ooh, that's a... Controversial, controversial.

Jen (00:27:39)

Tea, tea is disgusting, Michael. I'm sorry to break it to you.

So that just means it's your passion that fuels you then, right?

Tina (00:27:49)

Yes, correct.

Jen (00:27:49)

If you don't need caffeine, then it's passion. Which is, you know, always accessible.

Tina (00:27:52)

I'm also someone who struggles with sleep a lot.

So sometimes I'll come in and I've said, "Oh, you know, I've had four hours sleep".

And they go, "Well, do you need a coffee?"

I go, "No? I'm just fine the way I am."

Jen (00:28:01)

Yeah, I'm the same. So Tina, you're obviously doing this fabulous interview with us today, and I know that you've done lots of communicating. Three minute thesis, all that sort of things. And you know, they're high pressure situations. Do you have any advice for people who are working on managing their nerves, their public speaking nerves? Do you have a strategy that works for you?

Tina (00:28:26)

It sounds very silly, but I started it when I was a kid. So I guess it comes from that. I think it was from a movie. My sister had said it to me when I was, when I started debating in year 7. But it was to hold onto a paperclip and it like channels away your, your nervous energy.

I know it might sound really silly, but it worked for me when I was in high school. And it's, I don't know, I kind of have continued that now. I don't hold onto it anymore. But I just imagine, you know, it flowing out.

Jen (00:28:52)

I don't think that's silly at all. I don't think it gives you a focal point. I think it's brilliant.

Tina (00:29:00)

Yeah. I think it was from a movie we had seen as a kid and she's recommended it to me. And I was like, Sure, I'll try it.

Michael (00:29:05)

Okay, wow. I mean, it resonates with me. I... When I first started teaching, I was very nervous about that and I used to feel a lot better if I was holding like a pen? I feel like, you know, my nervous energy would flow out of it. I give it a, you know, a swish and flick and you know, the magic would happen. So I hear what you're saying Tina. It does feel a lot better for me when I'm presenting. I do like to hold something in my hand. Yeah. So I think for the listeners, give it a go.

Jen (00:29:37)

Michael, are you telling us that you think a pen is a magic wand? Is that where this is going?

Michael (00:29:42)

I was... You know, it worked so well. I did go home and try and do some spells. I definitely have tried to do magic spells before when I was a kid reading Harry Potter.

Tina (00:29:53)

Everyone did.

Michael (00:29:56)

Yeah. So maybe that's where it comes from. Maybe we're both the same Tina. Maybe we both tried to do magic spells. You know, holding an object, channeling our energy through it. And that's where it comes from.

So that's a nice tip. But if you had to pick your very top tip for communicating effectively about science Tina, what would it be?

Tina (00:30:20)

Talking as clearly and slowly as you can. I know when we get nervous, I, you know, I even do it sometimes. We tend to talk really quickly and we tend to not really enunciate what we're saying. So I think just kind of slowing it down and you know, making sure you're saying everything properly.

And the way you want to say it, I guess that's kind of the most important part. It's also more engaging that way because I feel like if you're just you know, really speeding through it, everyone's kind of lost and struggling to keep up and they kind of get lost in it. Whereas if you're talking really clearly and saying everything that you want to say, it's a lot more engaging for the audience as well.

Jen (00:30:52)

Yeah, and I think it's not always just nerves. My problem is I speak very quickly when I get excited. And because I'm so passionate and I really believe in what I'm speaking about and I really want to share it with the audience. And I go really quickly and it completely undermines my mission, right? If I'm speaking quickly and not explaining things clearly enough, then I haven't served my audience at all well. So it's something I constantly try and remind myself of. It's great advice, Tina.

Tina (00:31:19)

With my results I do that sometimes. I get really excited about them and I try and say everything really excitedly. And I'm like, Hang on a second. Have they actually heard what I'm trying to say?

Michael (00:31:26)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really like that tip.

I think it's one of the most powerful things you can do for a talk is to actually slow down. And it helps with nerves as well. So yeah, I'm with you on that one Tina.

Jen (00:31:40)

Well Tina, it has been such a delight to speak with you. And I feel very grateful on behalf of a huge community of people out there who are managing CFS. Sorry, ME/CFS, if I could say it properly. And I just think it's wonderful both that you are doing the research in the first place, but also that you are so invested and passionate in working out how to share that with all of the different people out there who as you say, are not going to be reading the scientific papers. The papers are behind paywalls. They're not accessible. I just think it's fantastic.

And we'd love you to come back once you finish your PhD and whatever you decide to do next and for us to be able to explore with you how communication is playing a role in yeah, whatever you do next.

Tina (00:32:27)

Thank you so much.

Yeah, thanks for yeah, allowing me to have this platform I guess to speak about my research.

Michael (00:32:33)

Thank you, Tina. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:32:50)

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