Episode 129 - Interview with molecular biologist and balloon artist, Dr Chloe Lim

Transcript

Jen (00:00:11)

Hello everybody, I am so happy to welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm. As I always say, this is my favourite place to be for so many reasons, partly because I get to hang out with the most excellent Dr Michael Wheeler. Hello Michael.

Michael (00:00:27)

How you doing, Jen? I'm popping with excitement this morning.

Jen (00:00:32)

Oh, I see what you did there. Oh, dear. Yes, we... Oh I haven't got any puns prepared. I can't believe I didn't prepare puns, Michael. We have a really awesomely good popping time coming today, Michael. I'll have to think about that. Let me come back to it at the end of the show.

But Michael, you are about to meet one of my favorite SciCommers. And that's saying a lot, because I feel like I know some really amazing people in the SciComm world. But the reason why I'm so excited to talk with our guest today is because she really defies this idea that you kind of have to, you know, pick a path in life in STEMM and stay with it.

Because Dr. Chloe Lim is a scientist, a very accomplished scientist, but also an entrepreneur. She's a storyteller and she's just incredibly creative. I can't wait for you to hear everything that she's done Michael. So Chloe started out really deep in the world of science. She's got a PhD in medical science. I think it's 14 years, maybe over 14 years that she spent in the lab doing research in the world of molecular biology and epigenetics.

Then she moved into government using those skills, applying that expertise as a regulatory scientist. But then her path really changed and I think we're probably going to spend more time talking about this latter part of Chloe's career because along the way, Chloe discovered that she has this incredible talent at balloon art. Yes, balloons, hence the pop.

So in 2019, Chloe founded Giggly Wiggly Balloons, which is an amazing thing in that she turned her creativity and her artistry and her passion actually into a business. And because she's so talented at creating these incredible pieces of artwork with balloons, she even got onto national TV as a finalist on Channel 7's Blow Up show, which is a competition showcasing balloon artists.

But these two worlds come together, which is why we really want to talk to Chloe. She brings together the science with the artistry. Because now she has a science education group or company called Twistyfic, which uses balloons to make learning fun and help kids understand more about science.

She's written a children's book called What Makes You Unique, which introduces kids in an accessible and fun way to DNA and what makes each of us 'us' based on our DNA. She's a passionate advocate for diversity and inclusion in STEM. She has a podcast, CALD Voices in STEM, and this is Chloe's way of elevating stories of culturally and linguistically diverse women in STEM, voices that sometimes get lost I think, in the world of often, you know, old white men in lab coats.

She's a mentor in a whole lot of organisations. She's been recognised with lots of awards. Essentially, Chloe is just smashing it out of the park when it comes to science, business, education, creativity. Chloe, we are so rapt you could find time to chat with us today. Thank you. I'm so excited.

Chloe (00:03:41)

Oh gosh, it's a huge honour for me to be able to chat with you and Michael and also to share a bit about my story with your listeners too. So thank you so much for this opportunity.

Michael (00:03:51)

Oh excellent, Chloe. We can't wait to get into more of these topics.

Jen (00:03:56)

Oh Michael, I was waiting for another pun.

Michael (00:04:00)

Oh... Well, I can't wait Chloe. I can't wait for you to inflate my knowledge of balloons and science.

Jen (00:04:08)

I thought you were going to say that you are bursting with excitement, Michael.

Michael (00:04:12)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chloe (00:04:14)

Well, I think we can only say that this episode will hopefully blow up.

Michael (00:04:17)

Yeah, yeah.

Jen (00:04:20)

Chloe, you've thought about that before, right?

Chloe (00:04:24)

I used it a lot during the show actually, so...

Jen (00:04:27)

Yeah, I bet you did. So obviously we want to talk about your incredible science communication and your creativity and how on earth you got into balloons. All of that stuff is coming.

But on this podcast, we do really like to start with people's kind of beginning. So you began as a medical scientist. You did spend a lot of time in epigenetics research. So we’d love to hear the story. What got you into science in the first place? What kept you motivated during all those years in the lab, given that clearly you discovered you had other passions? Like, we'd just love to hear a little bit about the science world of Chloe.

Chloe (00:05:02)

You know, when I was growing up, I've always been fascinated by how things work. And even in, you know, high school and also in pre-university courses, I gravitated towards science too. So I was going for like biology or physics or chemistry. And maths was actually one of my favourite subjects too.

And then, you know, I guess as part of trying to work out what to do for university, I was researching, you know, how can I best help others and how can I help, you know, improve the health of other people? And that's how I stumbled upon medical science.

And, you know, one of the things that I really wanted to do when I was young is to actually move overseas to study. And so I worked really hard to get scholarships, so that I can afford to go overseas and study. And I was able to get a scholarship at Victoria University of Wellington. And that started off my science career in doing an undergrad in Bachelor of Biomedical Science. And you know, I was really interested in how the human body works. So I did a lot of courses around human anatomy, biochemistry.

And I think the thing that fascinated me most or how it got me into the epigenetic space was when I did a summer research project at the end of my third year. So the Australian National University back then... I'm not sure if they still offer it now, but they had summer research scholarships and they would fund students from Australia and New Zealand to come over and do a research project. And I was very fortunate to be able to get one.

And the one that I did at the end of my third year was on epigenetics. And I found it so fascinating to know that we can actually look at things at a molecular level. And there's so much happening at that level that is really, how would you say? Helping us function as a person. And so that's how I kind of got on to my science career. Like I started off as a research project, a little summer research project, which then became an honours project. And now I couldn't stay on in Australia because I was an international student, so I had to leave the country.

Found a job in Singapore. Did a research assistant gig for a bit at the National Neuroscience Institute looking at tumors in mice. But then I got my PhD scholarship to come back to the ANU. So then I did my PhD and I really enjoyed spending all that time in the lab, creating, getting, generating results and understanding something about what's happening at the epigenetic level and looking at chromatin environment.

So you know, I stayed on, became a postdoc as well. And then I moved over to University of Canberra, where I then continued on my postdoctoral fellow [in] a similar topic, so looking at epigenetics in the immune system. And then following from there, I did a research fellowship as well and I also started some work with a biotech startup that my supervisor then was looking at.

So she was looking at epigenetic drugs and how you can change the cell, the cancer cell into one that is non-cancerous. And so you know, I was part of this clinical trial, trying to develop a clinical trial in order to study these drugs in metastatic breast cancer patients. And you're really just setting the whole thing up.

And it was very interesting to move in a way from the wet lab bench into more like a lab manager type of position and then into becoming a clinical trial coordinator. And I mean, there are obviously challenges because when you're doing experiments, things are going to fail. And then so, so we need to troubleshoot and we also need to...

But I think that curiosity or that interest in you know, wanting to find things out and get it right or just putting out good work, that sort of helps me keep going as when we come across you know, all these challenging things.

Michael (00:08:57)

Wow. Okay, so you had this real love and passion for the science and you were really interested in understanding things at the molecular level. You know, driven by wanting to help people and you know, starting off on a great trajectory, research trajectory? Where did the balloon science come in then? Because uhh, you know...

Jen (00:09:23)

Isn't it obvious, Michael? Don't all scientists become balloon artists? I don't know what planet you're living on.

Michael (00:09:28)

At one point, yeah.

Where did the idea first come from? I mean, have you always been a very creative person and this was kind of a manifestation of that creativity?

Chloe (00:09:42)

Oh gosh, I would not call myself a creative person. Like I suck at art. Like when I was in high school, in primary school, you know, art was not my strong suit. But I did play piano, so you know, I do, I am musically inclined. However, I never thought of myself as being that, creating that type of art form.

And I would have not thought that I would be a balloon artist if you asked me this 10 years ago. It's like, what? Chloe is a balloon artist? I don't know what you're talking about. I don't even know what balloon twisting is. Anyway...

But I mean, it all started because six and a half years ago my church needed someone to twist balloons at a community event and no one put their hands up. So I thought, Oh maybe I can give it a go. So as you do when you want to learn something new, you go on youtube and then I twisted my first balloon dog. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so much fun. And I kept going, kept looking for different videos. And I was like, Oh, this is amazing.

And it was just this undiscovered interest that came about just because I'm trying to meet a need of the church. And you know, at that point of time, I was also looking to start a business. I was like, Oh, maybe I can make this into a business. And so that's how Giggly Wiggly Balloons was born. Now, as part of my service offerings, you know, I didn't want to do the classic thing of just party games at parties, like a lot of the kid's party entertainment service providers would do. I really like the idea of, you know, merging stories and books and reading as part of my offering.

And so I actually learned how to do balloon storytelling shows and offer that as part of my service. And so, you know, I would use like the story of the three little pigs that everyone know and get kids to be involved. And, you know, when I started, I actually published my book in 2019 as well, the children's book, What Makes You Unique.

And, you know, when I was doing the storytelling shows, I was like, Oh, what if I merge my show, my books, and then balloons and signs all together to create a sign show? And that's really how it got started. I mean, it was very humble beginnings. It started off at my daughter's childcare. My first show was...

Jen (00:11:46)

You've got to start somewhere.

Chloe (00:11:49)

That's right. So my first show was very rough, but it was at my daughter's childcare. And they were so lovely to be able to accommodate me. It's like, Oh, yeah, go ahead and try this with the children. That's fine. But no, it was really how it got started.

And I was like, Oh, this is actually a lot of fun. And the kids were engaged and they're like, Oh, maybe I can do something with this. So a lot of, I think a lot of my opportunities and stories really come from trying something different and trying something new and having the courage to do so.

Michael (00:12:17)

Yeah, wow.

Jen (00:12:17)

I think that takes huge courage Chloe. Like I just... I mean, even just saying to your church community, "Yeah, I'll give it a go. I've never twisted a balloon before, but I'm sure I can learn". I think even that is courageous, let alone then turning this into a business and bringing your science and your art together, I just think it's phenomenal.

And I'm really interested to hear more... Guess what I'm wondering is was it sort of a real light bulb moment when you went, Oh, balloons and science, they go together, there's a future here? Or was it kind of a more slow burn where you sort of watched your audience and saw that people were, you know, understanding complex topics that either they wouldn't find easy to understand otherwise or they just wouldn't be interested in otherwise? Like how long did it take for you to realise that balloons and science actually are you know, kind of a match made in heaven?

Chloe (00:13:04)

Oh, gosh, it was definitely lots of work in progress over many years. And I had to do multiple iterations of the show as well.

And it was part of I guess... You know, I mean, the busyness of life, you know with three kids and, three young kids at that time. And twins. Did I tell you I am a twin mom as well?

Jen (00:13:24)

Oh, my gosh. No, I didn't know. I knew you had children, but I didn't realise your life was quite that crazy.

Chloe (00:13:29)

Yeah, yeah. So at one point I did have three under three. But I mean... Yeah, fun times.

But, I mean... It was, you know, it's... When I do my business, it's kind of like fitting in where I can with the family life, with my work, because I was also working. I'm still working a day job as well. And it's really just finding those pockets of time to be able to think about what I can do with the show and finding opportunities to be able to test the show out and present it to the public.

So for me, like I'm very thankful that, you know, I applied for the National Science Week grant, the local one in the ACT, and I was able to get the support to actually do the show for free to the community with the grant that they provided. And so that was the first step really, in really presenting it to the public and getting that feedback from the parents, from the children, and also from the educators who were supporting me as part of that show.

So Communities@Work, they're a wonderful nonprofit organization who's been supporting me all through these years in presenting this show to the community too. And so, you know, it's really just starting from that small little room. And then, you know, as I get more confident and understand, getting that feedback from not just the children but also the parents, that I was able to use that feedback to make it better and improve it.

And so, part of that, you know, I actually also invested in improving the show. I invested in a show director a couple of years ago. Yeah, and so we actually went through the different parts of the show. And I mean, thankfully at that time, I got another National Science Week grant and I was able to run how many shows was that? That was probably about six to nine shows, about six to nine shows in a span of one to two weeks. And I was able to get lots of feedback, and real-time feedback to keep improving the show as I go.

And I think what's important is I know people don't like to do this, but it's so important to record yourself and then watch yourself and cringe at it. But you do have to watch yourself in order to see what are the areas that you can improve. And so that was part of how, you know, using that feedback. And also from there you can also see you know, how engaged people are too. So it's all that feedback loop and reflective practices that really help in developing the show to where it is now.

Michael (00:15:56)

Oh, wow. That's fantastic. I mean, I feel like feedback is a huge missed opportunity for learning for a lot of people. I feel like a lot of people find feedback difficult. Like, you know, I'm putting my hand up as well as someone who finds feedback difficult. And often the temptation is, you know, not to watch back a recording or not to ever record yourself or you know, for fear I suppose of maybe, you know, not appearing as well as you thought you appeared.

Jen (00:16:26)

So Chloe, I really want to hear more about your children's book, "What Makes You Unique". Because I think it is quite unique to, you know, decide I'm going to be a person who tries to introduce genetics to kids. Because I don't think genetics, you know, it's not like writing a dinosaur book, right? Or I don't know, some other kind of more obvious topic in science that gets kids excited.

So I'm interested in the background of why you decided to write the book, but I also really want to know what have working with young audiences like you have both with balloons and with your book, what has that taught you about how to communicate science and potentially really complex science?

Chloe (00:17:05)

Now, the opportunity to come up and write this book actually came about because at University of Canberra, they had this write a children's book in a day workshop.

Jen (00:17:14)

Ah, fun!

Chloe (00:17:16)

Yeah, I know, that sounds very interesting. And so I signed up for it, and I did not realise, but it was actually run by Library for All. And so this is a non-profit organisation who's trying to improve literacy for children especially in underdeveloped countries who don't get access to books. And so they were curating a library of books and they wanted to bring in some non-fiction books as well.

And so they reached out to UC and got all the researchers from different areas to put together a book about their research. And so naturally, I was doing epigenetics. And so I was like, Oh let's write a book about DNA. And I think this is...

Jen (00:17:50)

Like how hard can it be to explain epigenetics to young children? Easy, all in a day's work.

Chloe (00:17:57)

Yeah. Well, I mean, the main focus you know, it's like, I guess I always thought of like in order to relate to children, you have to relate it to something that they already know or to something that they can see. And so as part of you know, how we know that we are unique or we are different is you know, our appearances, our physical appearance.

But then the message is to kind of bring in the idea that, Oh, there's something actually inside your body that makes all of us look very different and unique. And so the idea of you know, how we communicate to children is really in any form of communication that we do, we always think about the audience first. And think about you know, what is the background knowledge? What could potentially be their experiences? And how can I then tailor my message so that we can link it back to what they already know and then introduce some new information that we can then build onto the existing knowledge?

And so that's the sort of approach that I take with a lot of the different shows that I do. Like okay, so they know about like... The most recent show that I've done is the Foodie Fun play. So we're talking about food and nutrition and how we want to eat healthy fruits and vegetables. So we introduced, you know, broccoli. And they all know broccoli, right? But then we then tack on to... Which most of them, surprisingly, a lot of them actually like broccoli.

Jen (00:19:19)

Broccoli's delicious, to be honest.

Chloe (00:19:20)

When I asked them to put their heads up. I know. Yeah, I know. It's amazing. It's so full of good stuff for you. And so you know, you introduce the things that they already know. And then you add on the you know, the interesting fact or the thing that makes it good for you or you know, give it some interesting spin to it as well.

And so I think that's one of the things that I find that's really key in engaging children is adding a bit of novelty, adding some fun. And of course for me in my case adding balloons as well.

Jen (00:19:52)

I mean, I just think it's really wonderful that somebody with as strong a genetic background as you... You know, you didn't just do an honours degree or a master's degree or a PhD. You have years and years and years of experience working in this area. Not to say somebody with less years of education and experience can't communicate brilliantly. Of course they can.

But I just love the fact that you came to your kind of period of really engaging with children and doing the communication side of things after you had such extensive background and experience in the science itself. And look at the quality outputs that it's resulted in. I just think it's amazing. So I have to ask Chloe, anyone who's listening thinking, Hey, I know some cool science, but I really want to be creative and I really want to bring my personal flair to what I do. What advice do you have to other science communicators who really want to do something kind of bold and courageous and creative like you've done?

Chloe (00:20:50)

I think the first step is just to do it. Like you have to try.

Jen (00:20:54)

Isn't that a slogan out there somewhere? Just do it.

Chloe (00:20:57)

Yes. Yes, just do it. And that's why they use that slogan. But I think unless you try and unless you put yourself out there or put your work out there, then, you know, you won't be able to get that feedback. And I think we talked a little bit about feedback before, about how I get feedback from parents and that really helps me develop my shows. And it's just being vulnerable and being able to reflect back on the feedback that you get. Because sometimes, you know, we don't really want to get... You don't really want to hear feedback that is not as positive as you like. But a lot of times I find that you get constructive feedback and that's what you can work with right?

And so it's a matter of creating whatever type of communication or like message or whichever form that you want to do and just put it out there. So, you know, thinking about it like this podcast. You know, we're talking and then we're just putting it out there, we're publishing it out. Or you can be, you know, creating a piece of art that depicts a molecule or a cell and just sharing it with the world so that people can actually enjoy it.

And in some ways, a lot of times we are held back by our own beliefs and our own lack of belief in ourselves as well. And sometimes we care too much about what other people think about our artwork. But what I believe in is you just created not for truly the pleasure of others but firstly to show that, to have that creative expression of your own work, yeah? So it's you showing your creativity. And as part of the process, you may delight others with your work too.

So it's really coming back to being that artist. And even in science, you know, when you're doing your research, you have to really believe in the topic or in that particular, how do you say, question or problem that you are trying to solve. And so, when you truly believe in that project or research that you're passionate about and you keep pursuing it, eventually you will be able to reap the results of that.

Jen (00:23:05)

And I think what you said before is so important in the sense that it's you expressing your knowledge and your expertise and your passion and your creativity. And you're never going to please everybody. I can't think of a single creative output that everyone in the world is going to love, right? It just doesn't exist.

And the way I view science communication is, if we can be putting things out into the world that little bit by little bit bring more and more people into the fold and help more and more people to feel that science is something relevant to them and science is something that they can, you know, interact with it and belong as part of.

You know, and all the people that you've brought into this world of STEMM via balloons, [there's] probably nothing else might have got them in there, you know? And there'll be other people who are like, "I'm really not interested in balloon shows". And that's fine. You can't please them all. That's just fine.

Michael (00:23:54)

Yeah. I mean, people are diverse, right? People have got diverse interests. And I know that is another passion of yours Chloe, diversity. And, you know, so much of a passion that you started a podcast called Voices in STEM, which I'd love to ask you about.

I mean, what a great way to advocate for culturally and linguistic voices in STEM by you know, setting up a podcast with that exact name. Could you talk to us a little bit about that passion and and motivation behind setting that up?

Chloe (00:24:33)

So part of the challenge of being a culturally diverse person, you know, either you're a migrant or you could be, you know, first/second generation living in Australia, you know, with migrant parents as well. And part of the challenge is, you know, there's always that cultural challenge of not wanting to speak up and not wanting to take up space and not wanting to be visible. Because you may be perceived as you know, arrogant or boastful and all those sort of things. That's one side of it.

But the other side of it is the fact that a lot of times we don't actually hear the voices of culturally diverse women. And if you're talking about women in STEM, I think that challenge is even greater as well. Yeah, and so, especially in male-dominated STEM fields. And so what I'm trying to do with this podcast is really to showcase the examples of women who have gone through these challenges and who [have] actually succeeded in spite of these challenges. And use it as a way to inspire other women and girls that it is possible for them to be in this challenging field of IT perhaps or you know, in engineering, potentially in construction. And in all of these places, there is a place for women in these industries. And that we can absolutely thrive in these industries too.

And so I'm very thankful to be able to connect with all of these amazing women and to be able to share and showcase their stories. I have, you know, I've had feedback from people, from the people who were on the guest, as a guest on the podcast, who say that, you know, "your story has helped, you know, this student of mine to be able to see that it is possible for her to do STEM too".

And, you know, all of these sort of small little things. And even if I were to think back, even with my science shows, all the little anecdotes of what the parents share with me about how things have changed for their children. These are the things that really keep me going in, to keep serving others and to keep pushing and creating stuff. And this is why, you know, when we talk about science communication, we need to keep creating. Especially for science communicators, you know, you're not just consuming information, but you are getting that information and putting it in a way that people can understand and hopefully inform the future perspective on any decision making that they have to make.

Jen (00:26:59)

Hear, hear.

Michael (00:27:00)

Yeah. It's really impactful. I mean, it might seem like a small thing. That like, you know, it's a podcast that's maybe making a small change in the perception of a child but that you can lead to really big differences in you know, what they pursue in the future. So, yeah...

Jen (00:27:20)

Yeah. Great work, Chloe. It's really exciting!

Chloe (00:27:22)

Thank you.

Michael (00:27:23)

Yeah. And you know, I feel like we could continue chatting for you know, indefinitely Chloe. But we are reaching the time of the podcast now where we're going to switch gears a little bit and we just have some quick questions that we'd like to ask you to round out the interview.

Chloe (00:27:38)

Yep, sounds good.

Jen (00:27:39)

No pressure.

Chloe (00:27:43)

Haha. I feel like I'm on a test now, like with this.

Michael (00:27:45)

Okay. Well, first question is, what topic in science do you always feel excited about?

Chloe (00:27:55)

That's a good question. Well, I am a very, how to say? Because I'm a biology-based person, so anything around advancements of gene therapy. Because at the moment I'm kind of yeah, just wanting to learn a little bit more about gene therapy.

But the other thing that I've learned recently is also the idea of data storage in DNA cassette tapes.

Michael (00:28:20)

Oh wow. Okay.

Chloe (00:28:21)

So I'm not sure if you've heard of that before...

Michael (00:28:22)

No.

Chloe (00:28:23)

But yeah, you can actually use DNA as a way to code information. And you can store a lot more information on a DNA cassette tape as opposed to you know, your, well, I guess your usual hard disk drive and things. So instead of using the zeros and ones as binary information to code for information, they use the four bases of DNA, the A, G, T, and C, and use that as a way to store digital files.

Michael (00:28:49)

Yeah, wow.

Jen (00:28:50)

That's really cool. I can see why you're excited about that Chloe.

Okay, next question for you Chloe is: What is one communication skill that you are currently trying to improve?

Chloe (00:29:05)

Oh gosh, there's so many things to improve. But the one thing that I do want to improve more is improv. So the ability to be able to speak impromptu at any point. And a lot of the work that I do, you know, especially with shows with children, there's a lot of improv involved because you don't know what the kids are going to do next. You don't know how they're going to respond. And so you're going to have to play with that a lot. And so I think improv would be the next thing I need to work on.

Jen (00:29:34)

Great. Me too.

Michael (00:29:34)

Yeah wow. It's such a great skill to have, being able to improvise, but also challenging and nerve wracking as well, right?

And it's a great segue to what I wanted to ask you about next, which is what is your go to method for dealing with nerves before giving a talk or an interview or say whatever makes you nervous. How do you deal with those nerves? Spiders, you know, whatever.

Chloe (00:30:01)

Sorry, I smash spiders. No zoologists here right now, anyway.

Jen (00:30:04)

Me, me!

Chloe (00:30:06)

Oh, sorry! But I do kill spiders anyway. But, no. So let's talk about killing nerves, not spiders. Anyway.

Michael (00:30:16)

We'll lead with that.

Jen (00:30:16)

Nice segue.

Michael (00:30:17)

That'll be. We'll advertise that... We'll just snip that quote out and that'll be an advertisement on social media.

Chloe (00:30:24)

But I guess the main thing for me is preparation. I think if you're prepared, you... Make sure you spend some time thinking about your points. And I do a lot of practice, like real-life practice myself too. And the other like quick way to be able to you know, calm nerves is breathing exercises.

So I do meditation. There's a specific meditation tape or audio that I listen to if I have a big show coming up. Then I will listen to it to get myself into that right frame of mind.

And really, it's really leading me into knowing that you know, I'm here to serve others and I'm here to make it fun for other people. And so it takes the pressure out of me but to really put it out to you know, serving the audience.

Jen (00:31:08)

Yeah, I think that's... I always agree that is the best way to reduce nerves is to remember it's not really about you. It's about you providing value to the audience. And as soon as you stop thinking about yourself, I think it gets a lot easier.

Okay Chloe, next question. Is it coffee or tea or something else that fuels you through the day?

Chloe (00:31:29)

Tea. I drink so much tea, it's not funny. In fact, this is a cup of tea just here.

Jen (00:31:36)

Excellent.

Chloe (00:31:36)

But yeah, I love tea. So usually black tea and then, black tea with milk, white tea. And then it's like green tea and herbal teas for the rest of the day so I don't get too much caffeine stimulation. Yes.

Jen (00:31:49)

Yeah. Excellent.

Michael (00:31:49)

Yeah. You've really mastered the art of tea drinking it sounds like.

Chloe (00:31:52)

Yes.

Michael (00:31:55)

Yeah, I love tea as well, but I need to, I think, diversify from English breakfast.

Jen (00:32:02)

Surely it's Irish breakfast that you drink, Michael. Come on.

Chloe (00:32:05)

I was going to say.

Michael (00:32:06)

Yeah. They don't have enough. It's very hard to find. Well see, yeah, it should be Irish breakfast, shouldn't it? Yeah, I was...

Chloe (00:32:12)

You can diversify as well. Too good...

Michael (00:32:16)

I feel like I've committed a crime now. I've just admitted to committing a crime. Let's move on then from this topic of conversation.

Final question then Chloe I'd like to ask you is what would be your very top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Chloe (00:32:34)

Hmm. I think firstly would be clarity. So if you're clear about your message, you're clear about what is it that you want to say, then it makes it easier firstly for you to communicate it, but then secondly for the audience or the receiver of the message to be able to understand it as well.

So I would say... And clarity actually is a tricky thing to do, because you actually have to really think about how to cater the message, how to deliver the message, and to make sure that the message lands. And so you have to think of it from multiple perspectives, not just yourself as a communicator, but as the person who is going to receive the message.

Jen (00:33:11)

Oh, I think that's really excellent advice. And that's part of the fun of communicating science, right? Is putting yourself in other people's shoes and thinking about what they're there for and how to connect with them.

But Chloe, I have very very absolute clarity right now that I am incredibly grateful to you, that you made time to join us today. It's a busy time of year and we absolutely loved getting to hear more about all the incredible things that you've done.

And I just feel so delighted that there are kids out there in the world who get to learn from you and get to, you know, benefit from your infectious enthusiasm. So thank you. Thank you for making time to chat with us. And go and twist some balloons, please!

Chloe (00:33:53)

Yeah, that's my life right now. Yeah, it's lots of balloons. But I love it. I love it.

Thank you so much for having me. And thank you so much for the work that you and Michael are doing to put all the science communicators out there as well. So thank you so much.

Michael (00:34:07)

Oh, thanks Chloe. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:34:26)

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd love you to tell a friend about the podcast or leave us a review. And you can reach out to us on social media.

And we're very excited to announce that we're launching a new newsletter called the ChitChat. Check out the link in the show notes or our posts on Instagram.

And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.