Episode 133 - Interview with science communicator Emma Donnelly

Transcript

Jen (00:00:17)

Hello everybody! I am so pleased to welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm. I'm Jen. And as always, I'm joined by my fabulous friend, Michael. Hello Michael.

Michael (00:00:27)

Hello Jen. I'm very excited for today's episode.

Jen (00:00:33)

Well, today's pretty cool Michael, because we're about to chat with someone who I've actually known for many, many, many years. In fact, since we were kids! We don't have time for me to tell you the whole story of why we were hanging out as kids, but the cool part of this story is that that was a totally different context.

And then it was amazing for Emma Donnelly and I to discover as adults that not only were we both madly passionate about science, which is probably not that uncommon, but we're also madly passionate about science communication, which I think is less common.

And so it's just been amazing for us to then get to kind of work together and cross paths and discover that we have so many of the same interests and are driven by some of the same things. So I'm really pleased to welcome Emma to the podcast.

So Emma does a million things and we don't have time to talk about them all. And one of the things that I'm so thrilled about with today's episode is that we're going to get to chat with somebody who's had a really diverse career in science communication over many many years and has done lots and lots of different things because I think that's so helpful for us to learn from.

But I'll give you some of the highlights. So Emma founded and directs her own business, so a science communication and training consultancy called Comm-it. We'll ask her later where the emphasis goes. And that consultancy is about helping researchers and organisations and institutions to share their science in the context of impact essentially.

And I think Emma's kind of journey into science communication might sound familiar to many of us because she's the daughter of two science teachers. So she's always had this love and curiosity when it comes to science. That's always been in her blood well before she probably knew what science communication was. But then, as I said, over the last 25 plus years, she's built this incredible career, kind of interweaving science, education, engagement, training, storytelling, communication.

And as I said, I can't tell you about all the different things that she's done, but some of the organisations she's worked with include SciTech and CSIRO, the BioMelbourne Network. She spent nine years at Curtin University as their science outreach manager. And I think across all these roles, her focus has always been empowering people in STEMM to be able to reach broader, more diverse audiences with their work, which, you know, that lines up pretty well with what we care about Michael.

She's also a really seasoned presenter. Anyone who's listening who's ever been to one of her workshops will know that Emma is super dynamic and engaging. She trains people nationally and internationally. She's been the national trainer for FameLab Australia for a number of years, which is a very prestigious science communication competition. So she's really experienced in helping early career researchers to hone their presentation skills.

And she's done other really funky stuff. Like she loves food, she loves cooking, she loves champagne. She was on the TV show My Kitchen Rules. She launched Culinary Science, which is a venture which kind of brings together her love of food and science and communication.

So, you know, whatever she's doing, Emma brings this passion, this energy, this expertise, this heart into what she does. And Em, we're just so glad that you're here. Thank you for joining us today. We know you are busy.

Emma (00:03:57)

Thank you Jen. Thank you Michael. I think we'll just stop there and I'll just step away now because I'm not sure that I have... I can do anything better than that. Like I'm just going to undo all that good work about talking about how good a communicator I am just by like speaking.

Michael (00:04:15)

I love that you have an interest in that intersection between food and science. I feel like I need more science in my recipes. I follow recipes blindly, but I have no ability to go off script. But I feel like if I only knew the science of why, then I could come up with my own recipes. But yeah.

Emma (00:04:39)

That's okay Michael we'll just start our own cooking show and I'll ninja in all the science and explain. So that's what I did when I do the Culinary Science. It's about the, I call it evidence-based cooking. So it's the evidence behind the cooking. So you go, is this an old wives' tale or is there some science behind this? And so I'm not wasting time or ingredients. So that's where that sort of stepped in.

Jen (00:05:00)

So Em, I have to ask you, I mean, the kind of obvious question is yes, you grew up surrounded by science, which I think many people listening will be able to relate to that at some level. And then you've built this incredibly diverse career. So like I said, there's outreach, there's media, there's university, there's consulting. You know, you've kind of done it all.

But when and where did you make that switch or maybe how did you make that switch from science into science communication? Because science communication is your thing. You are regarded widely as this amazing science communicator. But yeah, tell us about that switch.

Emma (00:05:35)

I'd like to say that there's strategy and foresight behind any of my career, but it's certainly... I think, based on your intro, I haven't yet got an ADHD diagnosis, but I think maybe I really do need to follow that up.

So my parents, as you know, were science teachers. I was surrounded by science and I guess science was our main language and we didn't have any religion. So I guess it was kind of our religion back then too.

And then when I went through my science degree, I did like almost one of everything, which at the time was like terrible because I'm like, I'm nothing. Like I can't come out with anything in particular. I don't have a title. Looking back, it was actually doing the buffet of science was perfect for science communication.

I didn't know science communication actually existed until I was unemployed, trying to get my first job after uni, really depressed because I just kept getting knocked back. I was going for environmental science job and it was, back then it was who you knew not what you knew, which I think is a theme that still happens in a lot of careers.

And I was unemployed. My mum had done some professional development with Scitech, which is the Science Center in Western Australia, which is similar to Scienceworks in Melbourne or Questacon in Canberra and she said, "Oh, they have a volunteer program. Maybe you'd like to do a bit of that". So I stepped into, did an interview, got into the volunteer program at Scitech.

And that's when... Science communication wasn't even a word used back then really. But that's when I realised that I'm actually not very good at science. I don't have very good precision. I get, as you probably understand from my intro, I get bored quite easily. So me and science weren't the best of buddies anyway.

But when it came to communicating and helping explain things to people and helping empower them in an area that maybe they feel that they're not welcome, I'm really good at that. And that must be where the science teacher blood comes in.

And so yeah, stepped into it completely by accident as a volunteer and then worked my way up the ranks. It was then birthday parties at a science centre, which I do not recommend. That job is the kids. And eventually went into a science theatre and was doing science shows, worked in the science lab, all sorts of things. And it's just been a path since then. Yeah.

Jen (00:08:01)

How cool that it was, (a) your mum going, "Hey, this could be fun", and (b), starting as a volunteer and then being able to do all these different things within one organisation that led you to realise, Actually, I want to do this.

And it's amazing how many of us say, "I didn't even know what science communication was. I'd never heard that term before. I didn't know it was a thing". And then we somehow find our way into it and go, Ooh, this is the thing I wanted to do.

Emma (00:08:27)

So true. And through my training, I spend a lot of time with scientists and technical experts and researchers, teaching them how to communicate, present, network, storytell, all these things.

And I always start my workshops with "What is, who's even heard of science communication?" And even within the science sphere, there is still very little awareness about that. So they get an education about science communication before we've stepped into anything else to make sure that our message is being passed along.

Michael (00:08:56)

Yeah, yeah. So you were leading kind of both of these parallel lives, pursuing your interest in science communication. So Emma, what gaps or frustration in science communication led you to start Comm-it? What were scientists most in need of back then?

Emma (00:09:19)

Well, I think, and it's still a need I think, is that don't think everyone should be an expert in everything so let me preface with that. I don't think, I think there is a role for science communicators everywhere and I'm not trying to remove that role because it is a very specialist skillset. It's generalist but specialist and it takes a particular type of I think personality to be able to do that sort of role.

However, to make our jobs easier and to... With the world full of misinformation at the moment in particular, hearing the science directly from the people who are doing the science is a really really important fact and requirement I think in the way the world works.

And we... I can be really passionate about what I talk about. But if I've got a scientist with me who can communicate really well, and can share their passion and how they got started. It's that whole if you see it, you can be it. And, you know, removing those stereotypes. I mean, Big Bang Theory was great for some things, but it was pretty detrimental for other things.

And so we don't, obviously in science communication, we don't have billions of dollars to build Netflix TV shows yet. But the more I can get scientists to feel like they're safe and they have the skills and the abilities to step into a space and talk about their science in a way that they're passionate and don't feel like they're going to be undermined or... Yeah, that's the sort of stuff I'm really into. I'm really into that empowerment piece of just getting people from one place, taking them to another and making the world a better place along the way, I suppose.

And scientists and experts can really get passionate and very particular and very detailed about what they do, but we really do need them to be able to take a few steps back and look at the bigger picture and identify who their audience is. That's one of the biggest things I spend time with people is actually explaining what an audience is and why they're really important. And if you're talking into the air and no one's listening, there's no point in you talking.

Michael (00:11:31)

Yep.

Jen (00:11:31)

Hear, hear. So Em, one of the places that I've seen you have massive impact with exactly those messages is in the context of FameLab. So FameLab International, hugely important and highly respected competition for PhD candidates to explain their research in three minutes. So similar to the Three-Minute Thesis (3MT), but far more creative and with lots more opportunities to bring I think, personality and pizzazz to the communication.

But I'm interested in your journey of learning how to teach early career researchers to do this well. What has that taught you about: How do we get this balance right between complexity, accessibility, accuracy? You know, the whole argument that we all hate about you know, dumbing down science. Like, what have you learned about how do we go from complex, big, detailed research to three minutes? What is? Yeah, what have you learnt?

Emma (00:12:28)

Well, it's been kind of a tricky path. And I was speaking [to someone] about this last week. Because when you're kind of a bit of a natural, and I have to admit I'm a bit of a natural when it comes to communicating, it's hard to decipher what steps you've taken to get to that point and then be able to teach it to someone else.

So a lot of the time it's been me teasing apart what I can do really easily and going, Okay, if I was with beginner's mind and how could I explain this to someone else that not only connects with them, but then makes them not overwhelmed and want to be able to access that.

So when it comes to dropping, [no], dropping is the wrong word, but developing three minutes, your talk... And I've actually been working with the University of Melbourne with a prize that they have where they only have one minute. So when people whinge to me about only having three minutes, I'm like, "You've got three minutes. I work with people who've got 60 seconds. Like, it's fine."

A lot of it is about looking at how you're going to explain it and share it and get engaged with humans, not with data. People aren't... data doesn't convince people. Emotions convince people and data then backs that up.

So with science people, it's about them stepping back into the human element and then finding the entertainment value. Because entertainment seems to be a dirty word. But if people are entertained, they're in a good mindset, their nervous system's relaxed, they are intrigued. And using all these techniques that marketers have used or Coca-Cola have used for centuries or decades, then we can take those and reuse those but use them for science.

And I think one of the terms I never use is dumbing down because we're not. Our audience isn't dumb. And I say it's "we're making it accessible for the people we're talking to". And that's about how we deliver it, what mechanisms we use, what language we use.

It's... I've got a methodology, so you don't have to you know, work it out one by one. But yeah, it can really freak people out because they're so in depth with what they're doing. And they're so used to being in an environment where if they get one fact wrong, they're scared to get to be jumped on to a place where it's actually more about intrigue and excitement.

And I almost say it's like you're trying to give people the hors d'oeuvre to have a little bit of a taster, the amuse-bouche. And once they're excited and interested, then you can give them more of the meal. But don't give them the whole like buffet because they won't know where to pick or where to stop or what to enjoy. So that's kind of the way I explain it.

Jen (00:15:07)

I love the food analogy. The food analogy's awesome.

Emma (00:15:09)

Yeah. Because that's what it is. We're all humans at the end of the day. We don't want to be force-fed.

Michael (00:15:15)

Yeah, decision paralysis at the buffet. What's it been like working with all those people? I mean, you've been... I suppose you're kind of taking them on a journey a little bit and you're trying to shift their mindset about how they think about their own work. And you're teaching them but I presume, you know, you also learn from that process as well. Yeah, what have you learned from working with so many people over the years?

Emma (00:15:42)

Well, I'm very lucky when I get to do, especially my training because I just get to meet so many passionate people. And as I explained in my science degree, I really didn't commit to one particular type of science. So I get to find out all the latest science in a really interesting way from the passionate people that are doing it. And I just get like, my whole soul gets fed by this amazing science that's going on out there.

Jen (00:16:09)

That's why we all love science, right? Because everywhere you look, there is (a), interesting people doing interesting things, but (b), questions that we want the answers to and almost certainly somebody who's trying to solve that problem will answer that question, so...

Emma (00:16:22)

Yep, totally agree. You're lucky.

Jen (00:16:23)

It's pretty amazing.

So Em, obviously storytelling is a huge part of what you do. You're a big advocate for the fact that it's all about the story. And as you said earlier, that facts and data don't convince people.

Can you help us? I think we all say that and we know that's the right thing to say. You know, people will all... If you ask a room of scientists, "have you been told you need to tell a story?" Every single person will put their hand up. I'd love to hear more from you about why.

So what's the difference, both for the audience and for the person at the front communicating, whether they're writing or speaking, what's the difference between a talk that's full of useful interesting accurate facts versus a story that has those facts but is being told differently? What do you think the key differences are?

Emma (00:17:15)

I think that's a really great question because often when I say "let's do storytelling" to a bunch of scientists, they all freak out because they're like, "Ooh, that's humanities. I don't do humanities". And I'm like, "no".

So there is actually scientific evidence that shows that stories can change our biochemistry and do change our biochemistry. So there is science evidence as to why storytelling is really important. It's also the way that we've always shared information. So back in the day before there was writing, maybe before drawings, we used to tell stories and lots of indigenous cultures still do this, tell stories about the world around us to help us understand what's going on. To explain where to find things, to explain why things are done. It's a way for us to make sense of the world.

And when we're talking about science which can be quite intangible at times, we do need that element that anchors us back into what makes sense about the world. So from a scientist's point of view, the benefits are that they're... We call it sticky storytelling. So your story's more likely to sit with the audience. They're more likely to take it on board. They're more likely to feel things when you're using a story, which makes them remember. And when they feel things, they then want to know the data.

And it's more likely for your, to be able to tell a story that helps you remember those aspects too. A lot of the work I do with scientists, they're scared they're going to get up in front of an audience and forget what they're talking about or not know where to go next or, you know... With a story, because it's so natural and we've built it a certain way and used a particular type of equation I suppose, it allows you to really connect with that story and tell it in a more authentic way without you being worried you're going to forget something.

So bringing the human back into your science, from an audience's point of view, it can change their biochemistry. If it's a sticky story, then they're more likely to repeat it to their friends and their colleagues, which means your impact is amplified.

They... And it also gets them into a state within their bodies where they're less critical, which I know can sound dangerous. But when they're in that state, they're more open to things. Which is why lots of other perhaps more malicious areas use storytelling because the way we're wired, we do tend to move out of our sceptical mind and into our own emotional body and that can actually change how we take information on board.

Jen (00:19:51)

Yeah, I think that's so helpful Em, because obviously I totally agree with you from the audience's point of view. Of course, we're going to engage more and remember more and be more likely to, you know, connect with this story.

But I think your point about if you're the person speaking out the front, a story's so helpful because yeah, you're not going to lose your train of thought as easily. You realise that you can actually tell the story in a slightly different order and it's still fine. You know, it sort of gives you this ability to just relax a little bit and say "Hey, I just, I'm just going to share this story with you." And I think that's you know, that's when the best communication happens. So yeah, thanks. That's a really great answer to that question.

Michael (00:20:29)

Yeah. I think that it really resonates, what you say about how storytelling can make people less critical, maybe more open to things. You know, I certainly use that with my toddler. So, you know, do you want to hear a story about a little boy who got changed?

Emma (00:20:47)

Yeah, right.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't feel like that's that compelling. But uhh yeah, if it works...

Michael (00:20:51)

Yeah, I mean, I need to work on my storytelling. But yeah, I need to spice it up a little bit. But uhh no, it seems to work for now so yeah, I can definitely see that...

Emma (00:21:01)

Well there's some special techniques. Let me help you out there Michael.

Michael (00:21:03)

Okay.

Emma (00:21:04)

So like I'm talking about storytelling like it's this black box and I hate it when I jump on a podcast and listen to people and then go, "Yeah, but you didn't tell me how to do it". So let me tell you the basics of storytelling.

There's a whole obviously art to it and science to it. But the basic thing, to tell a good story, you need to start with a time, a location, introduce a character or a person's name. You want to lean into your five senses. So you want to really get into that descriptive language. So what you hear, taste, smell, see, touch. And then you also want to leave people in a better place or a different emotional place than where they started. So you notice comedians are very very good at this. So I'm saying comedy is a professional development tool for science people, so go out there and watch more comedy.

But it'd be like... So five years ago, Jen and I were at an Australian Science Communicators conference. I was a bit tired because I'd just flown in. I could smell the coffee. I was excited for the day and I just turned around and bumped into Jen and there she was and we're both so excited to see each other.

And so that's just a tiny little story. And because I've used time, location, introduced a person, used my senses and left you feeling that emotional of being excited with me. So that's the basics of getting started in storytelling. It doesn't have to be heavy. It doesn't have to be a Pixar movie with 17 plot lines. It can just be very very simple.

Michael (00:22:36)

Oh, that's excellent. Yeah, I think I'm really going to up my parenting game now with some of those tips. Yeah, so thank you. And I suppose, you know, you've been doing this for a long time. You've got some great perspectives on... Well, you're very experienced.

Emma (00:22:56)

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Michael (00:22:59)

Well, I suppose I wanted to ask, you know, a question that perhaps looks back and also looks forward. So, you know, getting you to look back, what do you think has improved the most over the years in terms of how science is made accessible? And, you know, what still needs some serious work looking forward?

Emma (00:23:25)

I think as much as we all whinge about how much of a digital world there is, I think things like, and I'm not endorsing any of these platforms, but things like TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, where has that gone wrong? I think that the issue that we have is obviously around misinformation and the fact that there are all these platforms and that perhaps people aren't being given the toolkit to be able to understand how to be skeptical in the way that they might need to be because there's some pretty convincing stuff out there. Or how to then do the research or find out, ask the right questions to find out whether it's actually a rigorous and important piece of information or not.

So I think my concern is... Like I'm on Instagram and I'll look at something because I'm really interested in health stuff. And I'll look at something and they'll be like if you do this this will happen, or the latest Harvard research says this. And because I've been in science for so long I'm bit like Oh, I don't know. That sounds a bit like, that sounds a bit strange. Not off, like not big radar, just a little bit spidey senses radar.

And so what I do now is I'll screenshot that and I'll go to Perplexity, which is a type of AI which is really good at research. And I'll put it in Perplexity and go, "Is this right?" And it will come back going, "This bit's right, this bit isn't right, this bit isn't right. They've framed it the wrong way. If you want to know more research, here are the places you can actually read it".

And I just find that there... I'm really quite worried about how much I guess blending of science is happening, which is making it incorrect.

Michael (00:25:07)

Yeah, I think it's so right what you say. And it's so interesting how AI is at the heart of all of that. It's part of the problem, but maybe also part of the solution. But yeah, as you say, I think it's more important now than ever that experts are out there crafting the message of their own work.

Emma (00:25:27)

Yeah. And it's really hard because, you know, there's whole corporations behind the misinformation. Where when it comes to the science, especially in Australia, it's usually individuals. We don't really have whole large corporations like you know... I'm not necessarily picking on the pharmaceutical industry but they, especially in America, they have a very strong voice.

There isn't to me another side of that that allows for the same amount of budgets, the same amount of resources, the same amount of a connection to skilled professionals on the other side to counterbalance that. And so I think that we need a counterbalance. I don't know how to do that. Like I said, I don't have solutions, but I don't think we should give up on it just yet.

Michael (00:26:11)

No.

Jen (00:26:11)

No, definitely not.

Michael (00:26:13)

Yeah. And thank you for all of your hard work in empowering people to be able to get their message out there.

And we have moved to the time of the podcast now where we're going to round out the interview. We've got a few quick questions that we would like to ask you to finish off. So hope you're ready.

Emma (00:26:37)

I'm not, but I'll go. You say quick question and my brain just goes, oh no.

Jen (00:26:45)

Emma's always ready. She's always ready.

Michael (00:26:46)

This whole interview has just been a warm-up for the real tough questions.

Emma (00:26:53)

Yeah, yeah.

Michael (00:26:55)

Alrighty. What skill has helped you most in your career that you didn't learn at school or university?

Emma (00:27:03)

I would say my best or my biggest skill is being able to, is empathy and intuition. I'm kind of like, I'm very intuitive and I'm very, I have a lot of uh, I'm an empath, so I feel what other people are feeling. I'm also a highly sensitive person and all those things, I'm only just working out and how to manage them now.

But they have really helped me because at the end of the day, we're people working and engaging and connecting with people. It doesn't matter what tools we put over it or what lens, whether that's science, AI, poetry, any of those things, they're all superfluous to us being people. And so being able to connect with people has been a massive, massive skill that I really am very lucky to have.

Jen (00:27:53)

And I can certainly vouch for the fact that that is absolutely one of your, yeah, your very skilled areas Em. I've watched you connect with everybody and anybody in genuine ways, which is really important. So yes, okay, we could keep talking but we won't.

Next question is, what motivates you on tough days?

Emma (00:28:15)

This is going to sound bad, but guilt's pretty strong. And otherwise, like I have to, I really have to manage myself in ways that like I try and find things or know things that will get me through that first five minutes. And sometimes that's gamifying how quickly I can unload a dishwasher while the coffee's being made. And sometimes it's, you know, going to a coffee shop where there's people around me or catching up with a, you know, having a quick chat to a friend or asking AI some rando questions to get me going.

But yeah, I don't think I have one tool. I have a real toolbox of things. And that's another thing I try and teach the people I hang out with when I'm doing classes is start building a toolbox for resilience and for nervous system regulation and all those sorts of things. Because if you can't drive yourself and your body the way... We're not born with a manual. We need to, we need to be taught these things unfortunately. But I'm pretty passionate about teaching people those things too.

Jen (00:29:21)

Yep. Quite meaningful.

Emma (00:29:21)

That wasn't quick fire sorry.

Michael (00:29:22)

That's great. No. Yeah. Everyone's an individual. You've got to figure out your, the way you work. And everyone's toolbox, you know, will probably look slightly different. All right, Emma, what is the best question that you have ever been asked about work?

Emma (00:29:39)

Probably that one. No, I'm kidding.

Michael (00:29:42)

Yes! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emma (00:29:46)

What's the best question I've ever been asked about work? Oh, I think this probably isn't the best question, but I'm just going to talk about it. Within science communication, we were on Ask Me Anything session last year for the Australian Science Communicators. And one person was how do I get into science communication and how do I, like, what do I need to know?

And I'm like, well, science communication, there are unis that do formal qualifications, like the Uni of Melb, where you guys are. And then there's lots of people in science communication have sort of stepped into it as, I learnt it almost as a trade. I didn't have any qualifications and I've learnt it as I've gone along.

But I think the thing to know is that I would volunteer first just to check you really want to do it. Because on the other side of that, the reason I say that is because it's generally not very well funded. It doesn't always pay very well.

It's a very shallow industry as in, not the people are shallow, the people are great. As in there's not much opportunity for promotion or usually one, like each center for, will have like one science communicator if you're lucky.

So it's a very generalist and not clear career choice. So I'm trying to change that in just my own little world of making sure people get paid, not volunteer as much. Like I think volunteering a little bit to start with just to get a taste for it.

But also there needs to be in my belief more professionalism around the whole career of science communicating because it's a very difficult career to manage. And it's not one you can be very strategic. It's not clear. It's not like you become a junior accountant and then you become an accountant and then you become like maybe a partner in an accounting firm and all these sort of steps. There's no clear ladder, which makes it extremely exciting but can make it quite frustrating too.

Jen (00:31:52)

Indeed. Em, I would love to keep talking with you forever because you've got so much experience and there are lots of things that we haven't had the chance to speak about. But we will wrap up and I think perhaps we'll invite you back another day. There's a lot of other things I'd like to talk to you about.

But I would just say massive thanks for making the time for us and thank you for all the different things that you do in the science communication world. I think many of the people listening will have had the opportunity to interact with you and say, "Oh yeah, she was awesome. She was fantastic".

Emma (00:32:25)

And if you haven't, come say hi.

I'm quite friendly.

Jen (00:32:28)

You're very friendly. And it's been so great to chat and I'm so glad that our paths get to cross in all sorts of lovely professional ways these days as well as being mates. So thanks Em.

Emma (00:32:40)

And thank you for doing like this podcast. I know I spoke to you Jen earlier in the week. And I think that's one of the things that as science communicators we're trying to get better at is communicating what we actually do. Because we're so busy usually doing it because it is really an under-resourced space that you're so busy doing the stuff that you forget to talk about what you're doing. And we forget to put ourselves forward and I think we really need to do that more.

Jen (00:33:04)

Yeah, agreed.

Emma (00:33:05)

Thank you.

Jen (00:33:07)

Thanks Em.

Michael (00:33:09)

Thanks Em. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:33:26)

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd love you to tell a friend about the podcast or leave us a review. And you can reach out to us on social media.

And we're very excited to announce that we're launching a new newsletter called the ChitChat. Check out the link in the show notes or our posts on Instagram.

And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.