Episode 135 - Interview with parasitologist, writer and artist Dr Tommy Leung

Transcript

Jen (00:00:09)

Hello everybody. I am once again in my very favorite place and that is in the Let's Talk SciComm studio where I'm joined by the wonderful Dr. Michael Wheeler. Hello Michael, how are you doing?

Michael (00:00:21)

Hey, Jen. I am very good today and also very excited to be in the studio because today we have a very interesting episode and a very interesting guest. We are going to be talking all things parasites.

Jen (00:00:38)

Woo-Hoo! That's like everybody's favorite thing, right? Parasites.

Tommy (00:00:40)

Always.

Michael (00:00:41)

Everyone's favorite thing. I mean, you either love them or you don't love them, right?

Tommy (00:00:44)

That's usually how it works.

Michael (00:00:46)

And our guest today is Tommy Leung, a lecturer in parasitology and evolutionary biology at the University of New England here in Australia. And Tommy's research looks at the evolutionary ecology of parasites. So how they interact with hosts, why their life cycles are so weird and wonderful, and what parasite communities can tell us about the bigger, larger ecology of disease.

Now, Tommy completed a Bachelor of Science at the University of Technology Sydney and went on to do a PhD at the University of Otago in New Zealand. But Tommy doesn't just study parasites. They communicate about them in really creative ways. So creating... Tommy creates vibrant, imaginative illustrations that bring parasites and evolutionary biology concepts to life.

Tommy runs the acclaimed Parasite of the Day blog, where they highlight newly published parasite research. And more recently, they've created anime-inspired art that reimagines parasites as characters, which is fascinating.

And I can imagine that's a really great way to help change some of those perceptions about these organisms, which I believe are misunderstood. Welcome Tommy! Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

Tommy (00:02:19)

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Jen (00:02:22)

We're so happy that you're here Tommy. So when I got to meet you last year when I was visiting the University of New England and I got to hear a little bit about both your love for parasites and your amazing science communication work, I came home and said to Michael, "Michael, I've met this really cool person Tommy, and we really need to interview them". So I'm excited that you're here.

Tommy (00:02:41)

Well, thank you for having me. I always like am happy and love to talk about parasites at any given opportunity.

Jen (00:02:47)

Excellent.

Michael (00:02:48)

This is fantastic. I need to know more about parasites. So Tommy, can you tell us then the moment you first became fascinated with parasites because it is quite a niche topic. Was there a particular organism or was there a particular experience that drew you into this area of interest?

Tommy (00:03:10)

Yeah, so this is one of those things where I can say definitively like one key moment, that kind of sliding door moment that practically like changed my life. So when I was an undergrad, I read a lot of popular science books. I still do to some extent, but like I'm more discerning in my taste these days because now I'm on the inside. So I kind of see things a little bit differently when I read a book. It's like, oh, that's not how it is and stuff like that. But I still read popular science books.

But I was reading a lot during my undergraduate years. And one popular science book that I came across was Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer. I read a review of it in The New Scientist. And I thought, this sounds interesting. I'm going to get a copy of it. So I was reading it. I think it's probably towards the end of my second year or third year undergrad and I knew that I wanted to get into research but I wasn't exactly sure like what really grabbed my passion.

I knew I wanted to be a scientist. I want to get into science. I want to do research. The world has all kinds of interesting biological things. But what exactly? And then I read you know Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer and I thought like Oh. These are the coolest things that have ever existed on this planet. I have to work on them. Prior to that, I was interested in paleontology.

Actually, up until like that point, I was still interested in some way of like pivoting my studies towards a paleontological kind of research trajectory. But then I met parasites and I fell in love with parasites. And I decided that like, Yeah, this is, I need to get in on this, like whatever parasite research. So like I could say this is the one instance where I say, Yeah, this book actually did change my life.

Michael

Wow.

Jen (00:04:59)

Your whole life just went on a completely different tangent there. I love that story.

Tommy (00:05:03)

Exactly. It's amazing. I was going to go to become a paleontologist.

Jen (00:05:07)

So Tommy, I have to ask, because you said just before this idea that there are a lot of people who aren't terribly familiar with parasites. Because I think for a lot of us, we're a bit frightened or we think it's going to be a bit disgusting and we kind of don't really want to know. You know, it's better to not know about all these horrible things that parasites could do to us. But at the same time, parasites quite often end up in the media. You know, we hear these scary stories about zombie snails or whatever it is.

So when you hear those stories, I'm interested to know what advice can you give someone like me? There's this great headline that's meant to grab my attention and potentially make me frightened or feel disgusted. Like how...? Yeah, how do I know whether there's good evidence for what is actually being written about here? And how often is it just kind of beating up something to grab attention?

Tommy (00:05:56)

So one thing I would tell people is that the vast majority of parasites don't want anything to do with you. As I... To put it uncharitably, it's not all about you.

Michael (00:06:03)

Phew.

Tommy (00:06:05)

Like they have their own life cycle infecting their own things in the ecosystems. And they're part of the ecosystem and in some cases vital to a lot of ecological processes. The other thing too, especially when you're talking about things like ooh, zombie snails and things like that is that I actually read [a] paper a few years ago where one of the researchers was kind of lamenting about how overly hyped it is.

So like the way that people talk about behavioral manipulation by parasites in animals and how that feeds back into the science and how scientists get caught up in that and write about you know, their organisms and interpret [the] results in a very sensationalised way.

So the way that you know, if you read just the media and even just, you know, scientists' discussion about like you know, these kind of parasites, you get the impression that they're these like SciFi alien monsters that like controlling your every move and everything like that. And then when you read the actual papers and look at the actual behavior of animals that are influenced by parasite behavior, it's not so much like that. It's more like they're a little bit drunk or a little bit, acting a little bit off. But in a specific way that [will] enhances their chances of getting you know, transferred to another host.

So it's not as like you know, it's not like some kind of mind control thing. It's more like the parasite's giving them a little nudge in a certain direction instead. So umm... And that's fascinating in itself. It's like Oh okay. Well, you know, how does these new little nudges contribute to the parasites being able to continue with the life cycle?

So I'm someone who's not really all like... I know that it gets more attention but I don't really, I'm kind of uncomfortable with sensationalism. Because oftentimes when you read the actual story and you know, being someone in the position to not only be reading the paper but actually like generating those papers and results and things like that, you get a different perspective where you go, Oh okay, it's not as sensationalised. It's still really fascinating that they do things like this, but it's not like some wacky kind of like science fiction thing.

But I guess, you know, you've got to balance it out with like, often you need to use the science fiction angle to like draw people in. And then you tell them like, "Okay, it's not as like sensationalised as they're making it out to be".

Michael (00:08:29)

Yeah, it's really really fascinating. I'd love to ask you about that for a particular topic. So, you know, I've read the sensational headlines about Toxoplasma. And I've heard that that is something that can affect our behavior. Is that? Is that right?

Tommy (00:08:47)

Well, a lot of the results [were] from the rodent study. Sometimes it's a little bit inconsistent or even self-contradictory. For example, behavior of Toxoplasma-infected rats is different from mice. They're also different between sexes, different between age groups and stuff like that. It's not as definitive as like the way that people are making it out to be.

And I guess the problem with like a lot of the studies relating to like human behaviors, that humans have very complex behavior and their behavior are influenced by a wide variety of different things. And one of the things relating to studying parasites and especially in relation to host behavior is trying to establish some kind of like causal link because it's very easy to find some kind of correlation.

But you know, is the host behaving that way because it has the parasite or is it because the host behaves that way that predisposes it to becoming affected by the parasites? And while there is some evidence to indicate that Toxoplasma does seem to do some things to the brains, there are like studies out there that are attributing like you know car accident, infidelity and all kinds of things to like Toxoplasma gondii.

And I feel like you know, yeah, you guys are like really pushing it a little bit too much. Like I see certain names keep on popping up. I don't want to name them, but like there are certain people are building the entire career of like the idea that Toxoplasma is like you know, super duper mind control thing.

And I feel like talking about Toxoplasma this way, it kind of overshadows another aspect of Toxoplasma that I frankly find far more fascinating as a parasitologist. Toxoplasma has a life cycle where the sexual stage can only reproduce inside cats, but the asexual stage can infect and reproduce in a wide variety of warm-blooded animals. Practically any warm-blooded backbone animal can become host to Toxoplasma. And very few parasites actually do that. I find that aspect of Toxoplasma far more fascinating.

And that also brings up the question of like, Well, if toxoplasma can do that, if it's so good at transmitting between different animals because it can infect a wide variety of animals, why would it need to do the whole behavioral manipulation thing? Because it could just keep you know, they could go okay, from a rodent to a fox, the fox get eaten by a bear, the bear dies, gets scavenged by a rat, and then the rat gets eaten by a cat.

Like, you know there's so many ways for it to continue the lifecycle, it seems like it's possible that the behavioral change thing isn't like its main superpower, so to speak. It's, to me, its main superpower is actually the ability to infect a wide range of warm-blooded animals.

Michael (00:11:29)

That's really really fascinating. Yeah, that's a strong argument. Thank you for clarifying.

Yeah. And you know, something else that's really really fascinating Tommy that I want to ask about and shift gears a little bit now is your artwork. And I believe you started creating these illustrations during your PhD, is that right?

Tommy (00:11:51)

Yeah, I started drawing like... So the illustration that I'm most known for these days is the Parasite Monster Girls. And in fact, this is like partly due to a post that someone wrote about me on Tumblr that went viral a few times. Like screenshots of that post got posted on Instagram. And I could tell every now and then when like people have found me because like, you know, my Twitter followers shot up back when I still use Twitter, which I don't anymore.

But like... But yeah, so there's a lot of people who like found me online and only know me through the Parasite Monster Girl and were like surprised to later discover that like I'm an academic who published papers about parasites. Because I don't make that like, I don't make that like, I don't broadcast that so much.

So yeah, they... I remember one student telling me how they have a friend who read an article about how I draw Parasite Monster Girls and then go, "Oh yeah, there's this person who draw Parasite Monster Girl". And for some, like they, what a coincidence, they have the same name as your parasitology lecturer.

And then my student told him like, "What do you think? What are you talking about? It's the same person".

Jen (00:13:02)

Oh, that's so great. So you're like fully in incognito mode Tommy. I love it.

Tommy (00:13:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like, I just feel like the internet these days, you need a bit of mystique. People like put themselves out there so much.

Michael

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy (00:13:16)

But yeah, so I actually started drawing like way before that. Like I was doing it throughout my PhD. I was like drawing various other things a lot of like what they call speculative evolution thing where I call them like visual hypotheses. Basically you kind of, like people love thinking about like alternate history stuff. And often, you know, what if alternate history but like Earth's history? Like what if the end-Cretaceous mass extinction didn't happen? What if this happened? What if that happened instead?

So I was doing a lot of those artwork. But then in like 2015, I started drawing these like Parasite Monster Girls things because of, like I don't want to go into it here but like I watched this one anime and then once again it rewired my brain, so I started drawing these characters. And yeah, and so that's how that became like the thing that I'm most known for. I got interviewed by Science Friday, like a website Science Friday for that. And they like want to talk about that in relation to how much I love parasites.

Jen (00:14:16)

Yeah, I have read that article and we'll put that in our show notes. So Tommy, I want to sort of understand more. Like I can see that you are clearly massively passionate and excited about parasites. And we've just had a great example of your science communication skills in telling us a bit about Toxoplasma.

But now you've connected with this whole different audience. So let's picture there's all these people out there. They would never in a pink fit pick up a parasitology textbook. They would never actively seek information about parasites. They're either just not at all interested or they find it scary.

So what do you think it is about your illustrations, your anime? Like is this about creating empathy from your audience for these creatures because they're you know they're somehow more friendly this way? Is it about reducing their disgust? Is it just about telling cool stories like...? And you know, do you ever sort of step back and think, oh, maybe I'm not being as serious an academic parasitologist as I should be in doing these illustrations? Like, I want to understand more about your drive to communicate this way.

Tommy (00:15:20)

Yeah, I got to be serious. I didn't really like [start] drawing the Parasite Monster Girls because like I wanted to communicate parasites or like get people to feel yeah, empathy about parasites. I just wanted to draw monster girls. And like I also love parasites.

So those, I thought like, it's the whole paleontology and parasitology thing. So again, it's like, how do I put these two things together? Oh, perfect. You know, I love parasites. I love drawing monster girls. Let's put those two things together.

It's the same with my blog. Like I try not to follow any trends. And like with my Parasite of the Day blog and the papers I pick, I usually pick papers from like what most people would call obscure journals. So not Science, not Nature, not PNAS or those high impact, high profile journals. Because there's plenty of people writing about papers in those journals. I picked from journals from like you know, parasitology, International Journal for Parasitology and things like that. They're papers that only specialists read but I find them extremely fascinating.

So I, in... I've been extremely self-indulgent with my science communication journey, that I just write about and do the things I'm interested in. All the science communication stuff are just a side effect of like I read something fascinating, I need to tell someone about it but I don't have anyone in my immediate vicinity that I can tell it to, so I want to tell it to the whole world. That's kind of why I end up going into science communication.

And people just decided to kind of follow along. Like they go, Oh, this sounds interesting, because I don't present parasites as like, Oh, it's got to get you or anything like that. I present parasites as like, `Look, this is just the same way how people might talk about like oh, just this cool random bug that I find`. It's like well, parasites are yet another organism as well. It's like, look at the cool things that they do. Look at how it looks like. Look at what it does.

So that's kind of, I write about things and create things that I like to see in the world. And people, you know, whether they like it or not... They, you know, seemingly people decided they like it, so...

Michael (00:17:21)

Yeah, yeah.

Jen (00:17:23)

So what you're telling us is that if you had more totally nerdy parasitology friends, you might never have become the science communicator that you are because you just would have been talking with each other. But instead, the whole world gets to benefit from your love for parasites.

Tommy (00:17:31)

Yeah. That's possible but like, I'm a like, people, my friends would tell you that like I'm a very yappy person, so maybe that's not even enough. Like maybe inevitably, I would end up becoming SciComm because they'll get sick of me yapping all the time about this kind of stuff.

So it's like okay, I need an outlet. And the blog and everything else that I do and doing like you know, podcasts and stuff like that, all of those were the result of like me needing to yap about things. And like I need to get access to like a larger audience because like the people in my immediate surroundings would just like get sick of me eventually.

Michael (00:18:12)

Yeah. Oh, it's so great. I mean you're following your passion, clearly, and that's you know, probably the reason why you've been continuing this blog for so long. I mean it's a really big commitment.

Tommy (00:18:24)

Oh yeah, because I don't get money from it. And like, I don't like, I've never been really... That blog [has] never been syndicated. The closest to anything like that is when I... When one of the editors for The Conversation found my blog and asked me to like write some article for The Conversation. You know, based on the content of the blog.

But I've you know, never gotten any ad revenue. I don't, I keep it ad free because I don't want that as an incentive. Like I don't get any revenue from it. I barely get any like academic kudos from it because like you know how academia is like they still don't really take this like science communication stuff all that seriously.

So yeah, I just write it because it's like, Oh, I came across this cool paper about this thing about a worm that lives inside a worm. I got to tell people about this thing. This is so crazy.

Michael (00:19:09)

So what have you learned from that process, Tommy? I mean, you're communicating about this parasite research, which is very niche. It can be complex, but people are, seem to be really interested in it. I mean, has that surprised you? Have you learned anything from the process?

Tommy (00:19:28)

Yeah I feel like there is an audience that does exist for it. It's a very niche audience. But like niche audience with like a passionate following seems to be, just it describes like everything that I do and everything I'm into anyway.

So I feel like a lot of people try to go for like a mass appeal. It's like oh i'm gonna try to appeal to as many people as possible. And while that approach has its benefit, especially if you're trying to like make a living of that kind of approach, what you end up doing is that you end up diluting yourself and like people don't feel really passionately about it.

Instead, I end up inevitably kind of cultivating a smaller but more passionate following that always like, you know, they are seated for whenever you know, I bring out anything new.

Jen (00:20:20)

Tommy, I want to ask you about something that you've talked about in some of the articles that we read about you. And that is the fact that "parasite", people use that word, right? But they use it as an insult. It's been taken over as this word that we used, yeah, really negatively. From what I know of your work and my own studies in biology, parasites are extraordinary.

Tommy (00:20:42)

Oh yeah.

Jen (00:20:42)

You know, they've evolved to do incredible things. They deserve great respect and interest. So presumably one of your drivers is to kind of challenge these really deeply ingrained negative perceptions that people have about parasites. So I guess I'm interested in... Do you think you've made any inroads there? Do you feel like you and others have actually seen attitudes shift over all the years you've been doing outreach work? Or do you think we still have a really long way to go?

Tommy (00:21:08)

I think it's a bit of both. We do definitely have a very long way to go, but I do know that people who have come across my blog are... They're a lot more open to the idea that like hey, maybe there are organisms out there that live in ways that maybe kind of grosses me out on a visceral level, but [they're] still interesting things that are doing their thing in their environment. And they, you know, they deserve the spotlight as much as like anything else like a fish or bird or anything like that on the planet.

Yeah and so I do see some degree of attitude shift. Like I said, this is just, I'm just doing this stuff because I'm interested in, or regardless of whether, you know, there is a general public shift. But I do notice like for example in... And I don't attribute this to me, I think this is just a general shift that occurred in other people as well. There are more studies interested now in parasite conservation, recognising parasites as like you know, part of ecosystem and stuff like that.

And like I said, this isn't like my doing. I think this is just a general shift in like a new generation of parasitologists that came from a really different background. Because I'm a parasitologist who came more from an ecological background, an evolutionary ecology, ecological background. Whereas in the past a lot of parasitologists have come more from like health or animal health or taxonomist background, that looks at parasites as like in a different way. With the animal science people, they see parasites more as a problem rather than a fascinating subject in themselves, whereas like I got into parasites because like I'm interested in evolutionary biology and ecology and parasites does some very interesting things in terms of ecological evolutionary biology.

Michael (00:22:54)

Yeah well, I'm sure your work has inspired lots of people Tommy. So, you know, I'm sure you have played a role in that transition to some degree. Because, you know, you've been communicating on this topic that you're so passionate about for a long time.

And curious to ask you then what advice you might have for the listeners who they might be thinking, you know, I'd like to pursue some creative outputs and maybe try and bring you know, my research and creativity together, whether that's art or writing or other forms of media. What advice would you have to those who are interested in that? Maybe they're a little bit worried, you know, I'm not creative enough or `No one will like what I do`. What would you say?

Tommy (00:23:47)

I would say that like, if you think you have like very niche kind of interests, you may discover that like, Oh, there are other weirdos like yourself that are like, you know, other sickos in the window who are going like, "Yes! Yes!". Because like, they might also feel like alone.

So I think even if you have like very niche interests, you might discover like just by putting it out there, you might discover that, Oh, there are also other people who are into like this very specific interest. And maybe that audience is like much larger than you think.

So whatever it is that you're interested in, don't kind of, don't put that down because it's possible that like, there's actually a lot of other people who also share your passion as well, no matter how weird and niche you think that niche is. Like speaking from the person who writes and create a lot of things in relation to like parasites, which you know, the word itself gives people the heebie-jeebies.

Michael (00:24:45)

Yeah, yeah.

Jen (00:24:48)

Oh Tommy, I just love the fact that, you know, this book led you into this amazing world of parasites. And my own learning about parasites was also in the context of the massive role they play in terms of ecology and evolutionary biology. And yet you've managed to create this world of amazing illustration and amazing stories. And I just, yeah, I think it's fabulous Tommy.

Tommy (00:25:10)

Oh, thank you.

Jen (00:25:11)

Hats off to you. And we also know how busy you are. You know, you're also an academic. We were talking before we went on air about the fact that teaching, starting and things are going to get busy. The fact that you've committed all of this time and energy and expertise to your illustrations and your blogging and all of the outreach work that you've done... I just, I think it's fabulous. Hats off to you.

Tommy (00:25:30)

Oh. Thank you. Yeah. Like I said, this is like an inevitable spillover of like, I would have end up doing something like this. It's just, because of like various different things that happened in my life, I just end up being this big trajectory. That like, I read one book, I watch one anime, and then next thing you know I'm drawing parasite monsters.

Michael (00:25:49)

Yeah, it's such a great story. Thanks Tommy.

We are moving to the moment in the interview where we want to shift gears a little bit and round out the interview with our quick questions.

Tommy (00:26:00)

Sure. Oh, great.

Michael (00:26:01)

So quick questions, quick answers. I hope you are ready.

Michael (00:26:08)

The first question that we would like to ask is what skill has helped you most in your career that you didn't learn at school or university?

Tommy (00:26:18)

That's kind of tricky. That's kind of like a tricky thing. Cause like I do a lot of things that are like mostly self-motivated. So I guess like yeah, getting into parasites was like one thing that, you know, I was never really taught about in undergrad. I think someone might've mentioned the word parasite at some point, but it was never really a focus of anything. I literally just read Parasite Rex and decided like, Okay, I'm going to go and find scientific papers about parasites and read all about them. So yeah, I think just like self-driven interest in things was a thing that wasn't really taught. That was just like my personality.

Jen (00:26:56)

I think another skill of yours Tommy is your amazing and powerful empathy for the underdog.

Tommy (00:27:02)

Oh yeah.

Jen (00:27:02)

And that's led you to do, you know, amazing communication. And no one teaches you that at school.

Tommy (00:27:07)

No, I guess not. They probably should, but like yeah.

Jen (00:27:12)

Okay Tommy, next question. What is it that motivates you when you're having a tough day?

Tommy (00:27:18)

Oh, what is it that motivates me? It's actually like little things, like surprisingly. So like looking forward to like... For example, I have like a comparatively like ordinary life. I don't know how people imagine my life is. But like, you know, at the end of the workday, you know, I always like make dinner. Like making dinner is like a good head clearing moment.

Sometimes I'll buy like little trinkets and stuff like that. That would be like, you know, I'll get it in like two weeks or something like that. It's like, Oh, well, you know, I can look forward to getting that little trinket or whatever. That like I will push through whatever it is that like I have to get through.

So I think just giving yourself like little rewards in some ways, it's a good way to keep yourself going in life in general.

Michael (00:28:06)

Yes. Big fan of little rewards. Treat yourself.

Jen (00:28:10)

I always say treat yourself like a toddler and give yourself a little reward.

Michael (00:28:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Little rewards and sometimes a big reward.

Jen (00:28:19)

Tommy, are you an early bird or a night owl?

Tommy (00:28:21)

Oh, definitely night owl. Like maybe even too much of a night owl.

But like, yeah, I can't, I can't get with like... If I need to, I would get up really early in the morning and I would like go, Oh wow, morning's like kind of nice. And then like in the afternoon, I'll start getting tired and go, Oh no. But no, I'm definitely a night person. For some reason, it's just like aversion towards like daytime.

Michael (00:28:46)

Yeah, yeah. Alright Tommy, last question. What is your top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Tommy (00:28:56)

I think science communication, you mentioned empathy before, but like science communication is an exercise in empathy. Because like in order for you to get other people to understand, you have to kind of think about like where they're also coming from as well. So...

And also, I think being authentic into yourself is very important. Because if you try to put on some kind of a front, it would inevitably crumble. Like you would falter and stuff like that. So being authentic to yourself is important. And sometimes your aspects of your personality that you might think like, Ooh, that's a little bit embarrassing, that's a little bit cringe. That might be the thing that is your charm point, so to speak. It's like, Oh yeah, I like listening to this particular person because they do this quirky little tick or something like that. So just be authentic to yourself and also think about like, `Okay, you know all of this stuff, but like other people don't know about it. So you have to put it in terms that like other people know about`.

And whenever I do science communication and talk about parasites and things like this, I'm pretty much talking from the voice of like very casual way. And I don't put on this effect. This is kind of like how I talk about it with my friends. Like, you know, back when I was in Otago, when I was like hanging out with my graduate friends, I will talk about them and we will talk about how we, you know, we're essentially gossiping about animals. So we go, "Oh, did you hear about like these animals doing this thing? There's this new paper." Like, it's like... And I go like, it's like we're gossiping about animals. So like it's, you can talk about this kind of stuff, like even though it's very very technical, but you can talk about it in a casual way without like really diminishing any of like the, I guess the gravity of the actual content, all the actual findings of those scientific papers. So just find your way and be authentic to yourself.

Jen (00:30:55)

I think that's such good advice Tommy. And we are just so delighted that you made the time and were able to bring your authentic self to this conversation. Because I just... I mean, for me, talking to anyone who's hugely passionate about what they do is just such a joy. And I love the fact that you are so passionate about something that for many people as you say, it gives them the heebie-jeebies. Thank you for the work that you do Tommy, and thanks so much for coming and chatting with us. It's just fabulous what you do.

Tommy (00:31:24)

Yeah, thank you for having me. Like, I really appreciate that there's podcasts like yourself that are highlighting people that are you know, doing all this work with science communication. Because I feel like this is one aspect that, you know, academia and the university system kind of just, kind of you know, push under the rug. Like, they give lip service about, Oh, science communication is important. But at the same time, they don't really, you know, consider that as highly in the metrics as like you know, like other things, more conventional kind of metrics of like academic success.

Jen (00:31:58)

Yet often it's the communicating in interesting ways with broad audiences that's having the most impact.

Tommy (00:32:03)

Yeah, for sure.

Michael (00:32:05)

100%. Well, thank you so much Tommy. It's been a fascinating chat and what a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Tommy (00:32:11)

Oh, thank you for having me.

Jen (00:32:14)

Thanks Tommy.

Michael (00:32:30)

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd love you to tell a friend about the podcast or leave us a review. And you can reach out to us on social media.

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And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.