Episode 137 - Interview with ecologist and author Prof Deb Bower

Transcript

Jen (00:00:16)

Hello everyone. I'm so, so happy to welcome you to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm, partly because it means I get to hang out with my awesome friend, Dr. Michael Wheeler. But also for a whole lot of other reasons Michael. But I'm so happy to be with you today. How are you doing?

Michael (00:00:31)

I'm doing very well today, Jen.

Jen (00:00:34)

Well, I have to tell you Michael, today we are joined by a seriously incredible scientist and science communicator. This is someone who has really deep knowledge in a particular field, which in this case is ecology, but bringing that together with this unbelievably infectious enthusiasm and passion and energy for sharing that science with the broader world.

So I'm talking about Professor Deb Bower, recently anointed Professor Deb Bower, which I'm very excited about that promotion. And Deb is a conservation biologist at the University of New England in New South Wales here in Australia. And she leads a lab called the Laboratory of Applied Zoology and Ecosystem Restoration, which has a very excellent acronym, which is LAZER. I think that's very smart. Whoever came up with LAZER... we will have to ask her about that later.

So Deb's kind of journey into academia started in the wilds of North Queensland. And I've lived in North Queensland. There's this incredible diversity of wildlife of all guises. But in particular, it was the frogs and the turtles and the snakes and the lizards that captured Deb's attention. And she's been curious about the natural world ever since.

So she's got lots of accolades and qualifications, a BSc, a PhD. Her work really is kind of this intersection of ecology, conservation biology, applied science. And at the core of her work is this fascination with aquatic and freshwater species, particularly frogs and turtles and all of the challenges that these animals face, which is habitat loss, habitat alteration, disease, invasive species, climate stress, all of these things.

So all of that is cool, given that I have a background in ecology, but the reason we really want to talk to Deb is because it's not just that she's an expert in these fields, but she drives this incredible portfolio of wanting to share her work with different audiences. So kids' classrooms and community events and public engagement work and the media, she really wants people of all walks of life to understand more about what's going on in our ecosystems.

One of my favourite things that I want to talk about with Deb is she's just recently co-authored a new children's book called Mystery of the Missing Turtles, which was beautifully illustrated by [a] friend of the podcast, Dr James O'Hanlon, who we spoke to not that long ago. And it's a really great book. It's this detective adventure to kind of understand what's happening to the turtle eggs that are in a local creek and it's getting young kids to think about conservation.

So lots of prizes. I won't embarrass Deb anymore, but a Churchill Fellowship, Superstar of STEM, New South Wales Young Tall Poppy Science Award. You know, she's basically an absolute legend. And this is where I come clean and say, Deb is also one of my absolute best friends who I adore. So Deb, how is it that it's taken so long for us to bring you into the studio with us to talk about your absolute love of science communication? How is that possible?

Deb (00:03:46)

I don't know Jen. I spend a lot of time out in the field chasing turtles and frogs, so I guess I'm not in the office too often.

Jen (00:03:54)

You do.

Why aren't you in your waders? And I don't understand. You're like... not in field clothes.

Deb (00:04:00)

Not today, but tomorrow I will be back out there in my snorkelling gear helping a PhD student to track Manning River turtles, so that's exciting.

Michael (00:04:10)

Yeah, wow. That does sound exciting. And you say you're chasing turtles, but turtles aren't very fast, right? So they must...

Deb (00:04:15)

Well Michael, underwater, they will surprise you. And as anyone who's ever tried to snorkel for turtles can attest, they can be rather tricky to catch.

Michael (00:04:28)

Yeah, of course. Yeah, okay. So very speedy underwater. It's just on land that they're slow.

Deb (00:04:33)

Yeah.

Jen (00:04:34)

So Deb, I feel like we've got to start with frogs and turtles. Because the reality is that I think frogs and turtles are gorgeous and wonderful, but a lot of people when they think about studying Australian wildlife are more likely to think of very kind of iconic Australian species. So what was it about you and your childhood in North Queensland that led you to working with frogs and turtles? Are you just weird or you know, what? Don't get me wrong, I love them, but some people don't.

Deb (00:05:04)

It's true. It is a little different. And I think I liked to be different as a child. When I was growing up and I was a rebellious teenager, I'd always loved animals and I was born in England and lived there till I was 12.

So over there it was hedgehogs and tits and all of the squirrels and badgers and all of those types of things. But when I moved to Australia, we've had this incredible radiation and speciation of reptiles. So over a thousand species of lizards and snakes and turtles. And so that really captured my heart, just how crazy some of our reptiles really are.

Michael (00:05:45)

Yeah. They are pretty crazy. I've seen a few snakes, but haven't gotten too close.

Jen (00:05:54)

Is this where I get to tell the story of just yesterday or the day before, Michael and I were walking along just a little patch of grass and there was a stick. And Michael jumped a mile and for a millisecond thought it was a snake and was quite concerned. Even though Michael, I'm sorry, it didn't look much like a snake. It was pretty clearly a stick.

Michael (00:06:12)

I... Yes, I must have been thinking about snakes. I had them on my mind. Yeah, but I mean, I've never come across a turtle or frog in the wild. I mean, maybe I just haven't seen them. Maybe they're a bit harder to spot. But what are the conservation challenges that those species face, Deb?

Deb (00:06:34)

Yeah, it's a good question. And the reason that I started working with frogs in the first place was because that's where the greatest conservation need was at the time. And so there is conservation funding available for frogs because they were one of the first taxa, one of the first groups of animals that had a really major global catastrophic decline.

And it happened in Australia through the 70s and 80s, and it was caused by... Well scientists didn't know at the time what it was caused by. And so scientists were trying to work it out for quite a few years. Was it climate change? Was it UV radiation? What was going on? Was it introduced fish? And in the end, it turned out to be a really effective pathogen, a fungal pathogen, much like athlete's foot. It gets on the skin of the frogs, but it can cause death in many different species. It sent multiple Australian species to extinction. And it's also a problem in South America and other parts of the world.

So I was working on frogs that had been affected by the chytrid fungus. And that took me to places like Papua New Guinea in search of this fungus to see if it had arrived there yet, and on different adventures to try and understand for the species that we still have how we could best conserve them.

Jen (00:08:02)

And is chytrid still a problem Deb? You sort of said that's what got you into working with these freshwater and aquatic species. Obviously, we know a lot more about it now. What's the current state?

Deb (00:08:14)

The current state is variable. There's certainly some really exciting work going on at the moment with releases of things like the corroboree frogs, that trying to find habitats that aren't so good for the chytrid fungus but where the frog can still live. And also working more on the molecular side with vaccinations and trying to understand how we can modify the habitat.

Simon Clulow's black bricks have been very well advertised as little frog hotels where they can warm up and reduce their chytrid load and then survive for longer. So there is some cool stuff going on.

Jen (00:08:57)

I mean really, you had me at frog hotel right? How could you possibly beat having frog hotels?

Michael (00:09:02)

There's got to be a joke in there, right? Some kind of a frog pun.

Deb (00:09:07)

It's pretty adorable.

Jen (00:09:10)

We'll let you ponder on that Michael. Deb, I could talk with you about reptiles and amphibians for hours and hours and hours. But I do want to start uncovering... You know, you are a very accomplished researcher. To be a full professor at your age is incredibly impressive.

But not only do you do really impactful, important and really much needed applied ecological research, but you also share your work in lots of creative ways with lots of different audiences. Can you tell us when did you realise that you wanted that to be kind of part of your approach as well? Because the issue is everyone's busy, right? There is enough to keep anyone in the world of academia busy without adding on citizen science projects and talking to kids and writing children's books and all the sort of things you've done.

So when and in what circumstances I guess, did you realise that sharing your science with different audiences was going to be just as important to you as doing the research itself?

Deb (00:10:10)

That's an excellent question Jen.

Jen (00:10:12)

Well, thank you.

Deb (00:10:14)

Because I do remember being a PhD student, and I spent a lot of my time living apart from the university where I was studying. I had a house in South Australia. I was studying turtles in the Lower Murray around the Riverland. And my supervisor came down and the local media heard about it and he went on the radio.

And that got me a weekly segment talking about Shelly Girl and Bonnie Boy which the community named, which were two turtles that had radio transmitters on them. And I would talk on the radio about what they were up to. And I remember at that time I absolutely hated it. And I really struggled with this idea of being visible and trying to talk about, you know, what are quite complex patterns in a way that is entertaining for everyday people. And so I did shy away from SciComm for the duration of my PhD and my early postdoc years.

And it wasn't until I did a leadership course, the same one that you have been faculty on Jen, the Homeward Bound trip, when we started talking about the importance of visibility, particularly for underrepresented groups. And in science, particularly herpetology, which is frogs and lizards and snakes and reptiles, women are underrepresented and particularly women at the professor level at the higher end.

It's very male dominated and a lot of young girls don't think of that as something for themselves. I also like to advocate for LGBTQIA folk in science and just be a face so that other people realise regional kids and all genders and all sexualities can feel like science is accessible to everyone.

Jen (00:12:07)

Hear hear.

Michael (00:12:09)

I think that's fantastic. So what was it that you struggled with in particular Deb? And then having this realisation that it's good to be more visible, especially for underrepresented groups, how did that help you get into doing more SciComm and become comfortable with it and you know, yeah, and really excel at it?

Deb (00:12:34)

Well, I was in between postdocs at one point. And there was a SciComm job available in the department to help to use outreach to advertise what people were doing. And I took that on and I knew that I had to convince scientists of the importance of outreach. And so then I had to research why should they do it. And I ended up convincing myself in the process.

Jen (00:13:03)

Well, you are very persuasive Deb, so I'm not surprised.

Deb (00:13:08)

I realised how impactful it is for getting the message out in different ways. So at the time, you know, there were lots of stats on how social media could help improve how many people were accessing your papers and how things like The Conversation were good for getting to people outside an academic audience.

And so I just started really investing in the other voice, the other audiences. And I think for me, when Jen came up to Armidale recently as a visiting academic, she talked about being a raging extrovert. I'm not. I find it very scary and it takes a lot of my energy to have to do things unscripted and to unfamiliar audiences.

And so I practiced doing that and I learned that I could do it even if I don't always look forward to it. It's kind of like the gym though. Afterwards, you're glad you did and you see the impact. And so having that experience really got me involved in actually doing things.

Jen (00:14:18)

I think that's a really good analogy right? Because we all know that strength work is super, super important. Some people absolutely love it, but there are plenty of people who don't absolutely love it but still know they need to do it. And you're right, you don't ever regret it once you've done it.

And you can get yourself there. And you can get better at it and more familiar and confident with it. And I think that's absolutely the truth, particularly when it comes to public speaking. It's just kind of a learned, practised skill. And the more we do it, the more familiar it becomes and the less energy it takes to actually kind of engage with it.

Michael (00:14:54)

And so... I suppose it's a bit of a virtuous cycle then, isn't it? Because as you say, you're doing it and you get some positive feedback I guess? And then that encourages you to do it more. And that positive feedback I think is really really important.

And I suppose in your case Deb, you're doing a lot of communication about wildlife, and you're trying to get people to care I suppose, about wildlife. What's been the response from the communication that you've been doing? Have you been in touch with people where you might have changed their minds, you've gotten them to care about wildlife a little bit more through telling stories? Yeah, what's kind of been the response to all of your communication work?

Deb (00:15:48)

I think it's interesting. There's some groups of animals that are obviously harder than others. So snakes are a very good one, a very hard one to convince people to really wrap their head around because they are dangerous. And because people grow up with such an aversion to them, and there's that learned response as well.

Kids are pretty easy to convince that wildlife is great. They have that innate curiosity. They just want to know all about everything. And so kids respond really well. And different ages, different things work. So getting young kids moving and doing, you know, life cycles in dance and trying to interpret things through ways that they can understand but also enjoy and interact with has been really good.

Teenagers are a harder group because they often like to look like they're not listening. But I've done quite a few school visits now and I find that actually taking the wildlife into them, so having little turtles that we've raised that they can look at is a really good hook for them. It's hard to go past something that cute that's right in front of you.

Michael (00:16:59)

Yeah, yeah.

Jen (00:17:01)

Do they all want to put the baby turtles on their Instagram?

Deb (00:17:05)

I don't know. They're not allowed [to have] phones in schools at the moment, so probably. I mean, who doesn't Jen?

Michael (00:17:12)

It must be very satisfying though, to see them go from, you know, pretending that I'm not interested in anything to actually, that turtle's very cute.

Deb (00:17:22)

It's pretty great. And we've had some work experience students who've engaged with that then come in and do more. And you can see that [eyes] light up when they realise that this is a pathway that people can follow at university, and it is accessible to everyone.

Yeah, so different groups and different people respond in different ways. And often, it's doing a lot of listening when it's landowners down the pub and not just trying to talk science to them. But just sneaking in a little anecdote, you know, once you've had a good yarn for a while and kind of earned their trust, then just a couple of things about the value of you know, why turtles are useful to have around or why snakes probably aren't trying to chase you and kill you every time you see them, that kind of thing.

Jen (00:18:11)

I love it. Conservation biology training by stealth at the pub. I think that is excellent Deb. And I have no doubt that you are very very good at that. I've seen you talk with all sorts of people doing all sorts of different things.

But I do want to return to this idea of kids for a moment because yes, you're right. On the one hand, it can be really easy to get kids excited about things and particularly about animals. But as a busy researcher and academic, it's by no means simple for you to have published a couple of kids books.

So as well as the most recent turtle book, I know that you and James also collaborated on Tilly the Tardigrade. I mean, how could you have a better name than that? Tilly the Tardigrade. I'm interested to hear what made you decide to prioritise time to do these. And I guess I'm even more interested in what do you think adult science communicators like us can learn from the way kids tell stories and listen to stories and engage with stories. What are the lessons for us?

Deb (00:19:11)

I think in terms of your first question, prioritising that and how I got into it, I love writing. And I love taking, you know, thinking about a complicated idea and then boiling it down to the absolute simplest points that there are.

And so with Tilly the Tardigrade, it's actually about wetland ecology. It's about these amazing adaptations that Australian animals have to this evolutionary history with a really variable hydrological cycle. But you know, that's a lot of big words. So putting a little tardigrade in a book and getting her to talk to all the wetland animals who tell her whether they fly away and come back or whether they go underground to aestivate or go to sleep or what they do and then discovering eventually what the tardigrade does.

It's the same theory, but it's just bottled down to a very simple story. And so I really enjoy that process of thinking about what we're actually trying to get across to people. I think that probably is what adults can learn, because that's what we do when we talk to the general public or farmers or anyone who doesn't have the specialised training in those big words and what's behind them.

It's really just about, well, how can I say this in a way that's simple to understand and easy to remember? And often stories do that right? They tell us something, give us a message, but in a very accessible way for our brains. Going through this journey and having this element of excitement and a climax and then, you know, making you laugh or smile at the end is just a perfect way to talk about wetland ecology.

Michael (00:20:59)

So...

Jen (00:20:59)

And, you know, if you've got a tardigrade as a central character, it doesn't get better than that.

Deb (00:21:04)

A purple tardigrade at that.

Michael (00:21:05)

Are they actually purple in real life?

Deb (00:21:10)

I mean, they're not. They could be. They're very variable.

Michael (00:21:17)

Yeah, I suppose you have to have a bit of creative license sometimes when you're communicating. And if you were to kind of boil down I suppose a lot of your experience communicating science, where do you think you've had the biggest bang for buck? You know, what is the kind of the one skill that early career scientists could really work on to increase the impact of their work?

Deb (00:21:44)

I honestly think the most important thing Michael is that you enjoy it. So I talked about how I find it hard to do interviews and television and live events that are unscripted. But I absolutely am thrilled by... I'll sit down on the weekend or I'll write a book in my head, a kid's story, you know, as I'm driving. I love that. I'm always thinking about it.

And so I'm motivated to do that. And I'm motivated to... You know, even when I'm not in work time, it's still ticking along in my head. And so, if people can find what they enjoy and what they're good at, then you don't have to, it doesn't feel like extra energy and this thing that's hanging over you. It's part of your enjoyment in life and that can drive you.

So getting to know yourself. And it's taken me a while to get there. You know, I always wanted to be outgoing and I liked the idea of appearing in different events. But now I know I actually... it takes a lot of energy and I can be much more productive and much more effective doing things I enjoy, which is often writing.

Michael (00:22:53)

Yeah.

Jen (00:22:55)

And you are a beautiful writer, if I may say Deb. Hey, I want to just briefly segue into something that you and I have talked about quite a lot recently just because I'm really interested to hear your opinion. So as you said before, I recently had the very great joy and honour of hanging out with you in Armidale for a little bit. You organised for me to be at a visit so we could talk about science communication teaching.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on how could universities be doing better in regards to scientists getting the training they need to feel like all of these amazing things that you've done and that others do in this science communication space so it feels less scary, less new, less unfamiliar. Yeah, after all our conversations, where have you landed in terms of what sort of training would be ideal?

Deb (00:23:48)

Yes. Well, through our conversations Jen, again, I've convinced myself, if I wasn't already of just how important that training is and having that incorporated into the degrees. And so I think universities sometimes struggle for the information that academics are finding. We're the researchers, where we know things are true, when that doesn't flow up necessarily to the people who are making the decisions.

And so I guess as science communicators, we need to be finding ways to get people in those positions to realise that as you yourself found, that's what employment, employers are looking for. And that's what students are going to benefit from when they graduate.

And having those skills in communication is going to help them get jobs and help them do better in those jobs, perform better, be more comfortable. And so they can have all the training and statistics and experimental design and content knowledge that they need to be a scientist. But if they can't effectively tell someone else about that, then it's essentially useless. It's like speaking a different language and not being able to make someone understand what you're doing.

We talk about in science how if you haven't published it, it doesn't exist because it's not accessible to other scientists. And it's the same thing with communicating to other members of your team, to people in the public, which is particularly important in government and for researchers. And even consultants to their clients, getting them to understand the findings that they have.

So being able to communicate to a range of different audiences is a core part of knowledge. Once you have the knowledge and you know how to do something, the next part of that is communication. So I think it's so essential. And any universities that don't have embedded, haven't embedded yet are behind on the uptake for upskilling their graduates.

Jen (00:25:56)

Yeah, I think there's been such a big shift Deb in the last kind of 5, 10, 15 years that this idea of communication training has gone from being something quite wacky and left field and fairly unconventional to now more and more of us are realising that just like stats training is essential, this should be something that's essential.

But I think in many cases we are really behind. And I guess that's exactly why Michael and I created this podcast with the hope that scientists who recognise that they'd like to improve their communication skills but don't have any access to that within their degrees or access to short courses or whatever, we hope that the podcast can go a little bit of a way to helping people get some advice and support. So yeah, thanks. Thanks Deb.

Deb (00:26:38)

Yeah, I think it's a really fantastic podcast and great for people, you know, to get ideas on what other people are doing and how to go about upskilling and just hear, yeah, all of the advice that other people have got to offer. It's brilliant.

Michael (00:26:53)

Oh, thank you Deb. Well, we certainly learn lots out of every interview that we do really. So it's really a selfish endeavor Deb. We just want to chat to interesting people.

Jen (00:27:03)

Michael, you've outed us. Oh no, people are finally going to realise why we do this.

Michael (00:27:09)

Oh quick, we better move on.

Michael (00:27:12)

We had better move on though. It is getting to the point in the podcast where we'd like to round out the interview with some of our quick questions. Quick questions, quick answers. Are you ready?

Deb (00:27:29)

Hit me.

Michael (00:27:31)

That was one question down. Great work.

Okay. So, Deb, what skill has helped you most in your career that you didn't learn at school or at university?

Deb (00:27:43)

Perseverance.

Michael (00:27:45)

Ooh, I like it.

Jen (00:27:48)

You are allowed to elaborate if you'd like to Deb, but you don't have to.

Deb (00:27:52)

I think lots of things can seem like roadblocks in academia. And if you can go with the flow a little bit and just keep coming back to what you love, it's very handy.

Jen (00:28:06)

Yeah, I don't think I know anyone in research or really any other job in STEMM that wouldn't say that perseverance has been a key part of their success. So yeah, excellent answer. OK, similar vein Deb, what motivates you on tough days?

Deb (00:28:25)

I have a really adorable dog called Matilda. And I think... I think I truly love and believe in what I do. And between the cuddles that Matilda gives me and the knowledge that I am where I want to be and need to be, I do get through tough days. I also have amazing friends. So they're part of that too.

Michael (00:28:56)

Next question. What is the best question that you've ever been asked about your work?

Deb (00:29:03)

All I can think of right now is some feedback I got from students when I gave a lecture to first years once. And they said, "Why does Deb always sound like she wants to die when she speaks?" And it's neither a question or a particularly constructive piece of criticism. But it is what is on my mind.

Michael (00:29:26)

Okay. How did you take that comment? Did you laugh?

Deb (00:29:30)

Oh, I loved it. Yeah, I loved it. It drives me.

Michael (00:29:33)

Okay...

Deb (00:29:35)

Because often in reviews, you get students who have had the best time and it's changed their life. And then you always have that one comment of someone who, you know, isn't having the best day. And so I like to remember that and I like to share it with people because we have a lot of rejection in science. And so being able to laugh your way through it and having a bit of a thick skin can be very useful.

Jen (00:30:02)

Oh well, that's good to learn. And good on you for taking a positive spin on what otherwise could have been quite a demoralising piece of feedback. I'm very proud of you Deb.

Deb (00:30:11)

Thanks.

Deb (00:30:13)

Next question. Which I think I know the answer to, but I can't wait to hear your response. Are you an early bird or a night owl?

Deb (00:30:19)

I'm an early bird.

Michael (00:30:22)

How early are we talking?

Deb (00:30:24)

Early enough that I struggle when I have to go and look at frogs at night time. Frogs are up until all hours of the night. But turtles, sometimes we catch them at night because they go to sleep as well. But my favorite time is just in the middle of the day when the sun's up and it's nice and bright and we can frolic in the stream. And, you know...

Jen (00:30:44)

In your waders and boots as you frolic so gracefully.

Deb (00:30:51)

Yeah.

Michael (00:30:52)

Yep, yep. That's fantastic. So good that your schedule is very much aligned to the turtle's schedule. Just need to convince those frogs to not stay up so late.

Deb (00:31:02)

Yeah, they're a bit rude.

Michael (00:31:05)

Very rude. All righty Deb, last question. What is your very top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Deb (00:31:14)

I think thinking about who your audience is and communicating for them rather than to them. And that might even be something I learned off you Jen. But you really have to think about what they want, not what you want to tell them.

Jen (00:31:32)

Yeah, it's such a subtle shift, isn't it? But it's just such a massive one. I was running a workshop last night with some fabulous young researchers and we were talking about that for a while. But it's a big shift to kind of go actually, this is not about me and I don't get to explain it in the way that I like or that makes sense to me. I've got to work out how to pivot to it being what's going to work for this audience. And it's not always obvious. It actually can take some trial and error and experimentation and a lot of reflection. So I think it's a great shift but not always one that comes immediately.

Deb (00:32:05)

Hmm... Thinking about how you can entertain people can be very effective.

Jen (00:32:10)

Yeah, for sure. Well, Deb, I have been thoroughly entertained by you as a friend for I reckon 20 years now, something in that vicinity. I feel so blessed that I get to be your friend and that we've shared many highs and lows of our lives over many years.

And I'm just so proud of you, Professor Deb Bower, for all the incredible work that you do, both within your discipline, but also the way you share that with other people.

So congratulations on being an utter superstar and thank you so much for coming and speaking with us because you really are such a role model when it comes to a very successful researcher who also takes communicating their work very seriously. So thank you for coming on the podcast today Deb.

Deb (00:32:53)

Oh, my absolute pleasure and I feel exactly the same way about you Jen Martin. So I've enjoyed this chat, thank you. And yeah, I hope that everybody out there enjoys it too.

Michael (00:33:19)

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And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.