Episode 141 - Interview with The Weekend Birder host and creator Kirsty Costa

Transcript

Jen (00:00:13)

Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm. I'm Jen. And of course, I am so delighted to be here because it means I get to hang out with my very good friend and colleague, Dr. Michael Wheeler. Hello Michael.

Michael (00:00:28)

G'day, Jen. How are you doing today?

Jen (00:00:30)

I got a g'day out of you, even though I didn't g'day you. I like that. Makes me feel very excited for the conversation ahead.

Michael (00:00:39)

Yes, it always sets the episode up for... You know, it blesses it with good luck when an Irishman says g'day.

Jen (00:00:47)

Yeah. An Irish blessing. I love it. I thought an Irish blessing was a little bit different. But, you know, I'm happy to go with g'day. Anyway, moving right along Michael, we have a treat in store for us today.

Because you know how we always love to talk about or talk with people who kind of straddle, you know, lots of different areas. And today's guest, really she kind of sits right at that wonderful intersection of science and storytelling and just paying attention to the world and finding wonder in the world, which I really really like.

So Kirsty Costa is a science communicator. She's an educator. She's a conservation professional. She works in conservation impact, which is all about designing programs that connect people with wildlife and to try and inspire meaningful and genuine conservation action, which is pretty important given the state of the world.

So she originally trained as a teacher and began her career in the classroom before then moving into environmental education and a whole variety of leadership roles across the sustainability sector.

So she's worked with a lot of different organisations. She used to be at CERES, which is an amazing place here in Melbourne, Australia. She's worked with the Climate Reality Project. She's done lots of interesting things within the world of education, including working with an organisation called Cool Australia, where she was supporting a huge number of teachers to try and bring real world environmental issues into their classrooms.

And I think I was reading up on all of the things that Kirsty's done and there's this consistent thread which has been her ability to translate complex information into things that real life people can actually engage with. So whether that's through her, you know, her education, her workshops, community initiatives. So she's really cool.

And add on to all of that, some of our listeners will know Kirsty as the creator and host of the Weekend Birder podcast, which has become one of Australia's most successful, most loved nature podcasts. And she's bringing together all sorts of bird nerds and talking about research, talking about, I mean, telling stories and kind of people's lived experiences of interacting with nature to help all of us interact with birds in our everyday lives.

And we'll have to ask her to tell the story because I know that this podcast grew from a really simple moment in a local Melbourne wetland and has become this hugely impactful podcast by helping people to understand that there's incredible biodiversity, [in] even really ordinary places.

So she's done lots of other things. Kirsty's been an ambassador for the Aussie Bird Count, which is all about citizen science. Basically, she's really really into the idea that noticing nature is a skill and it's a skill that we can all develop and that just science becomes meaningful when we all feel like we can be part of it.

So Kirsty's done a whole lot of things that really resonate with us. And Kirsty, we're so excited that you have made time to chat with us today. Thank you.

Kirsty (00:04:01)

What a beautiful intro Jen.

I got... I was like Oh, you sound pretty good.

Jen (00:04:03)

That's you, mate. That's you.

Kirsty (00:04:05)

Thanks so much for having me and hello to everyone who is watching or listening. It's such a thrill to be on this podcast.

Michael (00:04:14)

It's so great to have you on Kirsty. And I do notice you've got birds on the wall behind you. I have to ask, do you have a favorite bird?

Jen (00:04:23)

Ooh, hard question.

Kirsty (00:04:23)

Ooh. It is. My answer is that I have some birds that are close to my heart Michael. So I have the, the tawny frogmouth has a very special place in my heart. And I like to call it the muppet of the bird world. There's just something wonderfully fascinating and gorgeous about that bird.

And there's also some birds that are really important to my family. So my grandfather was a mad Collingwood football supporter and so he loved magpies. And even when my husband and I at our wedding, on our wedding day, we got married outside and some magpies flew down at our feet. And my, we'd only, you know, we'd wish he had been there at our wedding. And my grandmother felt so much comfort with having magpies there as part of just feeling like you know, we were connected as a family through birds. So that was really special.

And then the other one is my other grandfather, he actually left me his binoculars and field guide in his will when he passed away. And when I opened up the field guide, his podiatrist business card, the podiatrist he was going to, his business card was inside the field guide and it was open at the pardalote, the spotted pardalote page. And apparently that was a bird that really fascinated him and maybe always really delighted when it visited his garden.

So I don't have any favorites but I do have some birds that were really meaningful to me. And there's another one that kind of sparked this podcast which I'll talk about too. So it is very hard to choose just one though, because they're all really special.

Jen (00:05:50)

You'll be very pleased to hear that last night as I arrived home late from an event with my kids, there was a tawny frogmouth right above our driveway. And I'm like, "Look, guys, look!" And they're like, "Yeah, we're tired. Let's go inside". "No, no, look. Look at what's just up there." So they are pretty special just to have in suburban Melbourne.

Kirsty (00:06:08)

They are, and it turns out that they have about seven or eight different roosts that they'll visit over a year. So maybe you might see that tawny frogmouth again because once they find a nice, safe place to land that also might have some food around and some good shelter, they'll actually return to that spot again and again. And that's why some people feel quite protective of their tawnies in their local area because they actually see them regularly in the same spot.

Michael (00:06:34)

Yeah. Okay, I have to ask you...

Jen (00:06:34)

I'm definitely protective.

Michael (00:06:37)

Yeah. We have some tawny frogmouth near our place at a playground. They sometimes hang out there. And I'm always a bit worried about you know, making too much noise because they're trying to catch up on sleep. Am I right to be worried about that? Should I be quiet when the tawny frogmouths are around?

Kirsty (00:06:56)

That's such a nice, conscientious, empathetic question to ask Michael. I really appreciate that. And they're pretty good in urban environments, tawnies. You know, I'm sure that they've learned how to sleep through all sorts of different scenarios.

But I think that like all of us, they don't like loud bangs. And they definitely are aware of you know, other animals including humans being close to them. So I think giving them some space is really important. I think that there's another way to care for them as well and that's actually at night time.

So people often see them and they'll shine their bright torches or phone torches at them. And we know that animals who, you know, are nocturnal mainly and like to hunt at night, particularly our nightjars and our owls, have got really sensitive eyes to bright light. And so I often talk to people about how do you see them? A bit like what Jen saw them with her kids. How do you see them and enjoy them? But then... you know, not shine bright lights on them and walk away respectfully once you've had a little look.

And to be really sensitive when they've got babies in their nest. And their nest is really dodgy. I don't know if you've ever seen a tawny frogmouth nest. But sometimes I go, Dudes, how? Why are you even bothering? Like, it's like a couple of sticks that they've put together in the branch of a tree. And you're like, is that going to survive? But somehow it does.

Michael (00:08:10)

I've never seen their nest before. I just thought they sat on the branch. But yeah, my toddler son loves to spot them, but we always whisper when they're around. "Look up there. They're trying to sleep." I think that makes it a bit extra special, when you, when you use your whispering voice.

Kirsty (00:08:18)

It does. And it also is a beautiful way to teach your children about respecting animals. So thanks for you know, doing that with your children Michael.

Jen (00:08:32)

Yeah, good job Michael. Five stars. So I feel like we could talk about tawny fogmouths forever because they are just so amazing. But I do really want to explore your work and the incredible things that you've done Kirsty.

And I'd ideally like to go back a bit if we can. And that is to understand what originally drew you into both teaching and also this area of conservation. Like were they always intertwined for you or did they start as quite separate things that you later brought together?

Kirsty (00:09:06)

Yeah, that's a really good question. If I go back a tiny bit umm, earlier than that. When I was three years old, I had my first asthma attack. I was one of those asthma-ry kids. So constantly in hospital with asthma attacks, constantly on the couch with, you know, all sorts of illnesses that would come through my low immune system.

And so I guess very early on in my life, I could tell you if it was a smoggy day in Melbourne. You know, I had a bit of environmental sensitivity to my lungs. And then on top of that, I was brought up by an entomologist, so research, a scientist who researches insects, and a geography mother. So my mum would be teaching me about the landscape. So she was, yeah, she was a geography teacher. And so I would zoom out.

And then my dad would teach me about insects and also he had a soft spot for marine biology. So we would zoom in on the world around us. So I guess that's always been with me from a really young age about noticing nature in that way.

And then when I grew up and you know, got into my... I call them my Birkenstock wearing 20s, I worked in the environment movement. So I got into really becoming educated about the state of the environment when I was at uni. That led to a short career in the environment movement, working at organisations like Greenpeace, Oxfam, Community Aid Abroad, Wilderness Society.

And I guess because I had become really aware of the natural world and also I could feel that the changes in the natural world, I could feel them in my body, it really drove me to that. And then I always cracked the joke that I got burnt out in the environment movement and became a teacher. Anyone who's a teacher would know that's the most burnt out thing you can do.

But I did... I guess in my heart I went: You know what? It's... I don't think it would be "get them while they're young". I don't think I had that attitude. But I did go, there's a way that we can create change in the world by nurturing our relationships with nature at a younger age.

And so when I did my primary school teaching degree and became a primary school teacher, I definitely carried that with me. And in fact, I think the school that I worked for employed me because of my sort of sustainability, environmental credentials, and they could see that that would be useful in our community and in our curriculum. And so I did that for five to six years and really loved that. It's such a privilege to be a primary school teacher.

And from there though, I guess I'm quite autonomous. I'm someone who likes to have quite a lot of control over my own work. And to be honest, sometimes schools are not the best place for that. You kind of have very regimented days. And depending on what's happening in your school, you know, it can be quite controlled in what you can actually do, which I really respect that's the system that you work in. But it wasn't quite for me.

And so I went over to CERES in East Brunswick as you mentioned before Jen. And I was one of the pioneers of the ResourceSmart Schools program which is one of the largest environmental programs in Australia for schools, and very successful thanks to Sustainability Victoria for picking that up after CERES sort of pioneered it and wrote... You know, gave it the funding it needed to roll out across Victoria.

And that for me was like a bit of a passion mash, you know, passion mashing moment where I got to mash together my love of the environment and connecting people with nature and also my passion for providing young people with an education worth having. So that came together so nice there. And I did that for a really long time and loved it and then ended up becoming the director of education at CERES.

And then as you said, I got poached to move across to Cool Australia and work there as well. And now I found myself working more in wildlife conservation. But I think that teachers have an ability to port their skills across into all different areas. So yeah, for me, they are intricately linked.

And when we talk about communication, I actually see it as education. You know, you can call it whatever name you want. But if you are communicating for a reason and if you're having a conversation for a reason, then there's often a knowledge or a skill or a connection intent to that. So I see them as intricately linked in that way.

Michael (00:13:09)

Yeah, they definitely are linked. And you know, it's um, it's also about perhaps you know, you're learning as well from the people that you're interacting with and the people that you're communicating with. Which is great. Yeah, I love it for that reason as well, always learning.

And you know, you've built a really amazing career I guess, around science but without really having followed that traditional scientific pathway. What do you think are some of the things you've been able to do because you haven't followed that traditional pathway?

Kirsty (00:13:46)

Oh thanks, that's such a good question. So yeah I feel like I'm in a safe space here to say on a science communications podcast that I actually gave up science in year 10. So for me, I love learning through stories and through doing. And the science education that was around when I was in high school was very textbook heavy. And also I found it a bit frustrating because I felt like that my teacher wanted us to discover what was already true.

And my little innovative curious mind was more interested in challenging that or discovering something that we don't know yet. And so I just felt like they were just setting me up to learn what they already knew in their head. And I felt that really unsatisfying. And on top of that, I'm a bit of an empath. And I had trouble with like dissecting frogs. Like that for my little teenage heart was really challenging. And so for those reasons, I actually gave up science in year 10 and finished it there.

So I do laugh now that I'm hosting a science nature podcast, working for a science organisation and also doing things like getting up on stage with Al Gore and talking about climate change. I sometimes get a bit of imposter experience, but I think there's... I think that I've been really privileged to work with lots of amazing scientists, biologists, ecologists, climate scientists in my career.

And sometimes at the beginning, it's hard for everyone to understand my value because I don't come from that traditional space of research. I don't know all the fancy words. But I think slowly, we all figure out that there's space for people who don't have that. And the reason why is because I'm not so in it, that I can't see it. And I'm so in education that sometimes I can't see it. So we're always sometimes a bit close to the things that we're working in.

But I guess that allows me to lift up a little bit and see it from a different way and not have as much skin in the game say for like the science and the data part and have more skin in the game around the strategy, the evaluation and the communication part of science. And so it's been really interesting because for example, this week I was teaching people in our community about animal welfare science and you could argue maybe she shouldn't be doing that. She's not a scientist. But the community that I was working with, they don't need all the fancy words and they don't need that.

What they need is that translation of science into something that they understand, which is what Jen mentioned before. And that's something that I love to do. It really excites me. And maybe sometimes it could be accused of simplifying science because of it. But for me, my whole approach is how do you make things welcoming and accessible to people? And that's where I think having a non-scientist in the mix really helps.

And then I've had the privilege through that. I've learnt so much from the amazing science community that I'm part of. And then I've had the absolute thrill of being able to teach them a little bit more about how do you design a really good presentation? How do you put on a really good workshop? Exactly what this whole podcast is about, you know, that we're talking on today. I think there's some good knowledge exchange that can happen through when you put scientists and non-scientists together.

Jen (00:17:05)

Yeah, 100%. And those skills are relevant to everybody, right? Like whether you're in science or not in science, those fundamental skills... I was having a chat with a colleague the other day, and he was getting so cross that people call them soft skills. He's like, "They're not soft skills. They're just basic human skills, knowing how to share information with somebody in effective ways, whether that be in a presentation or having a conversation or whatever it is". Like they are just fundamental human skills and we all need to to practice them and to you know, work on them all the time.

Michael (00:17:35)

Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? And I've just been dying to ask you Kirsty, since you kind of hinted at the start of the podcast about the story of the weekend birder. How did it come about?

Kirsty (00:17:49)

Such a good question. So lockdown, dare I bring that up? You know...

Jen (00:17:54)

That's when we started this podcast too, lockdown.

Kirsty (00:17:58)

Oh really? There you go. So such a challenging time. Lockdown was a challenging time. And for me, it was my 40th birthday. The week of my 40th birthday was the first week of lockdown. And I had the best party planned. I was going to have a flash mob. It was going to be a dance off. I had dreams. I actually think I had 120 people, of my nearest and dearest friends coming to like a massive party.

So I was really devastated in my very privileged way of not being able to have that party. So... And as you can imagine, on top of that, COVID was super triggering for me because I had grown up with... I've got lung disease. So there was all of a sudden this virus that was actually affecting people who didn't even have lung disease and making them really sick. And that triggered a lot of health anxiety for me.

So the way that I found calm during that time was to get up really early and maintain my routine and go to a wetlands on Bunurong country near me in southeast Melbourne and watch the sunrise every morning. That was my commitment to myself, that I would do that. And there's something about also the sunrise in the morning where the world is calm. It's before the world gets busy. It's actually a really lovely time to be awake. And always awe and wonder can be activated. And through my understanding of how we interact with nature and understand how important awe and wonder is for our mental health.

So I was standing there thinking, Are we even going to see each other again? Am I going to die? Like they were, these were these big existential questions we were asking ourselves. And out of the reeds came a really weird looking bird. It had huge eyes on the side of its head and it was plunging its bill into the mud and I'd never seen like that before. It gave me such a shock actually because it was such a calm environment and all of a sudden this quite large bird came out.

And it ended up, after I Googled it, that it was a Latham's snipe. And a Latham's snipe, for people who don't know this bird is a shorebird. Shorebirds fly every year from the northern hemisphere to the southern hemisphere. They hang out here over the summer and then they return when the weather's better to the northern hemisphere to breed. And this bird flew every year from Japan to Melbourne.

And I've spent a lot of my life in Japan. So when I was working for Greenpeace, I was based in Osaka. That was 20 years ago. And my husband and I return regularly to Japan, at least once every one to two years. And I guess it was poignant, you know, at a moment where my wings were clipped, this bird was travelling still from Melbourne to Japan.

And it just hooked my curiosity. So if I look back on my photo library of all the photos I've taken in my lifetime, I would say Oh, I actually loved birds very early on. There's lots of pelican photos and seagull photos and magpie photos and videos on my phone but I didn't identify someone who really loved birds and got in, you know, was a bird watcher in that way.

But the Latham's snipe absolutely hooked me in and in the bird watching world we call that your spark bird. So it sparked my interest in bird watching and from there I started to download apps. I started to research. I got a pair of binoculars and I really got into it. And through that, I realised that actually there wasn't that much support out there.

Because normally, you learn from other people. But if you don't know someone who's a birdwatcher or you're in lockdown in COVID, there's no one to learn from. And so I decided when things got a bit easier in the world, was a little less lockdown, that I would try and think about how I could support other new birdwatchers. And so podcasts came to mind because I could do it from home.

And also it was a bit of a selfish endeavour because I wanted to learn from people. So wasn't totally selfless. And I also really wanted to create a podcast that felt like a community podcast. I didn't just want to have famous... there's enough famous people podcasts out there. I wanted to have a podcast where Joe down the road who really loves magpies could come on the show and feel like he could share his love of magpies with us and we wouldn't judge him. So he might not give us the right data, he may not give us the right stats. But, you know, that people could really enjoy feeling like they're sort of in it with each other. And that's how Weekend Birder was born.

And not, I just... I've been blown away and that's me being like genuinely honest, I'm very shocked how popular it is. But what I discovered was a whole lot of other people discovered bird watching during lockdown as well; or people have been in bird watching for a while but they haven't found community and this place feels like a place where you can come and listen and be part of community. So I think that's one of the reasons why it's kind of grown is because people have started to see the value of noticing nature and being out in the living world.

And also the power of community, I think we crave that at the moment as a society. Yeah.

Jen (00:22:46)

I think it's also you too though, Kirsty. Like I agree on all of that. But you do bring a really lovely kind of generous, welcoming, accepting tone to the podcast. You know, you have a really lovely style.

And certainly when I listen, I just kind of feel like I'm wrapped up in a nice lovely blankie with my hottie bottie and my hot chocolate and I'm just feeling like I'm in a you know, in a nice, in a nice safe place.

But I want to follow up that observation with a question. I mean, you know, you're an educator, you're a communicator, obviously you're already hugely skilled before you started the podcast, but have you learnt things about how to ask good questions and how to bring out people's passion and observations when you are interviewing someone on a podcast? Like what have you learned about talking with people?

Kirsty (00:23:33)

So much Jen. So much. I've learnt heaps. I've become a much better listener. And I've actually become a better listener because of birdwatching as well. Because we call it watching but actually it's listening.

Jen (00:23:46)

Yeah.

Kirsty (00:23:47)

I think my listening skills have been like amped up to a 10, which is great because I'm slightly deaf in my right ear. So I'm glad that I've become a better listener. But yeah, I think that asking the right questions is really important.

And for anyone who's thinking about starting a podcast or for anyone who's hosting a panel on a stage, I actually spend a bit of time getting comfortable with my guests before we start. I try and get them to calm down their nervous system because we all feel nervous going into talking in public places. I try and, you know, ask them about their day and just get them really relaxed before we start. And I think that that means that I hardly have to edit my podcast because people relax into it. They talk about what they know and what they're passionate about and that makes a huge difference. So one of the learnings besides really learning how to listen is about getting people comfortable in the space so they feel like they can just relax and be themselves.

And then yeah, there's definitely... The art of questioning is something, questioning has always fascinated me. I'm a language nerd. I love it. And I've become a much better questioner in thinking about how I position a question, how I... When I'm going to open a, going to have a closed question, when I'm going to ask an open question.

When I have to push maybe my guests a little bit more to give us a little bit more information, particularly if you're nervous as a guest. I don't know about you two but either I can actually have very short answers or really long answers. So how do you pull them back out of their answer or how do you get them to share a little bit more about their answer? That's kind of the art of questioning when it comes to interviewing as well.

And then also just giving them space. You know, sometimes when we talk to people in any interaction, our brains, our cognition is kind of rolling and we have these cognitive pauses in our brains where we almost space out for a minute. Sometimes I try not to jump in. Like I give them space. If they want to pause and think and then they'll go on another roll with their answer, I try and give them that space as well. And I don't think I always was good at doing that in my life, about giving people a moment more to think about if there's anything else they want to say.

And part of that as we all know is meaning that you might have three other things that you want to say or questions you want to ask and you have to hold, like you almost have to clam your mouth shut like a Muppet. You know, like you almost have to stop yourself, hold yourself back from your own enthusiasm, just to give a little bit more space for someone to say something.

Because sometimes the really meaningful and interesting thing can happen after the most obvious thing is said. So, yeah, it's definitely made me a better communicator. It's made me a much better listener and I'm still learning how to do that as well. Yeah, do that better.

Michael (00:26:32)

Hmm... Yeah, I'm seeing lots of parallels actually between podcasting and bird watching because you know, in both situations you're getting comfortable with silence. You're really listening and actively listening. Yeah Jen, maybe we need to do more bird watching.

Jen (00:26:50)

Well you know I'm a bird nerd from way back Michael. I'm happy to take you birding anytime my friend. Yeah, let's do it.

Michael (00:26:56)

Yeah, do you still go out bird watching?

Jen (00:27:00)

Not actively like I used to. But anytime I'm running, I can't help but listen and watch and see. You know, I was in Tassie on the weekend for a meeting and I was trying to run, but I had to keep stopping because I had to keep seeing what birds there were in the trees. So yeah, birds are really special Michael. I reckon you could really get into it. It's a lot about being present and paying attention.

Kirsty (00:27:26)

And it's delightful too. You know, I think birds are fascinating to watch. You can learn a lot through just watching and listening. You don't need to have, you don't have to be a scientist or an ornithologist to appreciate birds. And the other thing that is interesting about birds is they are a bit of the gateway to conservation.

So that was I guess the other motivation for me doing this podcast because I have a philosophy around change. So I guess over time I've become a bit of a behavior change expert. Again, not a social scientist but I have played with so many frameworks and had so much training and behavior change. And everyone who does that ends up landing in their own philosophy around it, knowing that there's lots of toolkits you can use.

And one of mine is around love not loss, which is a expression that I have stolen from the IUCN. But I can see that when we start to notice the living world, and I've actually almost tried to stop saying noticing nature because we are nature, right? It's a very... You know, like we are part of an ecosystem. We're animals living in an ecosystem. So when we start noticing that living world around us, it's really interesting about how we start to notice seasonal shifts and we start to notice changes in habitat.

And I remember when I got a bit bored of birdwatching in my local area and I got out my map. Even though I've been working in conservation and environmental education for a long time, I was again reminded about, Oh, that's where all the birds are because that's the only place they can be. And so it does, it opens up your understanding even more to some of the impact that humans have had on the landscapes, which have caused animals to have to shift and change their location and their behaviours to adapt to that.

And so I don't need to come on a podcast and run a really hardcore conservation podcast to get that message because you discover it naturally when you birdwatch. And I would much prefer people to fall in love with birds and then decide if there's something they want to do to help them in their habitats, then deliver a fear-based messaging or a depressive kind of story about birds and their ability to thrive. And also that positioning doesn't position birds as being empowered, which they are within their own lives. It kind of shows them as victims all the time.

So, yeah, I think that part of that is birdwatching. You will find Michael, if you really get into it, is that you also start to notice the changes in the living world, whether they be natural seasonal shifts or other things that are happening on the earth right now.

Michael (00:29:56)

Great. I'm inspired. Yeah, I'm going to go out and do it.

Kirsty (00:29:59)

We convinced you.

Michael (00:30:01)

Yeah, yeah, you convinced me. Yeah, it's so wonderful to hear you talk about birdwatching. And you know, you're so passionate about it. I feel like we could continue talking indefinitely.

But we are reaching that point in the podcast where we must shift gears a little bit and we would like to round out the interview with a couple of quick questions. So I hope you're ready.

Kirsty (00:30:28)

I'm ready my friends. Bring it on.

Michael (00:30:36)

All right Kirsty, so first question that I would like to ask is what is your favorite way to switch off after a long day?

Kirsty (00:30:44)

Well, I do love cooking. That's one of my ways of switching off. And then on the weekend, obviously it's you know, getting outside. It's really interesting. There was some research recently that said that six minutes of listening to birds calms your nervous system down and like decreases some of those stress hormones. So my husband says that I go out birdwatching on a Saturday morning and I come back a totally different person. So that's one of the ways that I downshift on my week.

Michael (00:31:07)

Oh wow.

Jen (00:31:12)

Oh, that's very good, very good advice.

Okay, slightly different question for you Kirsty. If aliens landed on Earth tomorrow, what aspect of your work would you want to show them first?

Kirsty (00:31:25)

Holy moly, what a question Jen. I was not prepared for that at all. If I... I think that I believe in the goodness of humans. And I know that that sometimes can feel contradictory or you know, in conflict with what is happening in the world right now. But I do believe in the goodness of humans.

So I think what I would want to do with those aliens is show them how great humans are and how great they can be, preferably so they don't eat or kill us. But... You know, I see every day humans doing amazing work to help the environment, to help each other. I see humans coming together. And that's what I would actually want to show aliens is how great humans are.

Jen (00:32:10)

Lovely.

Michael (00:32:12)

Maybe the aliens are already human watching.

Kirsty (00:32:16)

Well, yeah. I mean, I'll be giving them binoculars and telling them how to listen to us. Maybe they'll need a field guide in humans, do you think?

Michael (00:32:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kirsty (00:32:24)

That would be a very large field guide.

Michael (00:32:27)

Alrighty Kirsty, final question. What is your very top tip for communicating effectively about science?

Kirsty (00:32:35)

I think a dry five-point PowerPoint and talking at people for half an hour is not the way to go. And I know the listeners of this podcast know that really well through... I'm a fan of this podcast and I've heard some great guests talk about it.

And this podcast has really helped me become a better communicator, so I should say that. Should have said that up front actually, you know. With you, Michael and Jen.

Jen (00:32:57)

Aww, that's lovely. Thank you.

Kirsty (00:32:59)

But I think if we think about how the human, everyone's got a, you know, neurodivergent, we're a neurodivergent community. And, you know, there's a reason why a TED Talk is 10 minutes. I can't tell you how many times recently I've been in lectures and communications where they just talk at you.

So I would say talk with people. And my mentor in this space has been Nigel Sutton. And Nigel has taught me an approach called 'this is for you'. So whenever you are communicating, whether it's about science or whether you're just sending a calendar invite to some people to ask them to join you in the meeting, how can you position that to say this is for you?

So instead of this is for me, which I think a lot of people get up and speak or you know, they're... Even in their writing, you get the sense that they're kind of doing it for them. And so if you keep asking yourself, how do I show this is for you? That means you become more curious to ask people what they want to know and also how they'd like to be communicated to.

And also you can, they walk away from a communication experience from you going, Oh, I got so much out of that. I enjoyed that so much. I really felt like that was for me. And that has been a huge turning point for me and it probably is one of the reasons that Weekend Birder has been so successful. Because I really do think about this is for you. And I don't just talk at people, I talk with people.

So that's my hot tip for anyone. If you find yourself getting into a 'this is for me' space, see if you can pivot your way out of that a little bit and move back into a 'this is for you' space.

Jen (00:34:38)

I just think that's magic advice and absolutely mirrors the sort of things we talk about with our students that, you know, we have to take the focus off this is all about me as the communicator. And really have to think far more carefully and mindfully about yeah, What is it? What's in it for the people who we're asking to give us their time, give us their attention? Give us their, you know, really precious things?

So thank you for sharing that Kirsty. And thank you just for sharing so much of your wisdom and insight with us. I would love to chat with you for a few more hours because we're just so proud of the incredible work that you do and love where it's come from. And if anyone listening has not yet listened to the Weekend Birder you can gather that we are huge fans and we think you need to jump on board straight away and start listening.

So just well done Kirsty for your incredible work and thank you again so much for coming on let's talk SciComm with us, it's such a pleasure.

Kirsty (00:35:26)

It's such a pleasure being here. And I just want to thank everyone who's a listener for being curious about how you do this well. I feel like... And we've learnt that through this podcast time and time again that the world needs good communicators. And yeah, thanks to everyone for you know, committing to that learning journey. It's so important.

Michael (00:35:52)

Thanks Kirsty. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:36:13)

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd love you to tell a friend about the podcast or leave us a review. And you can reach out to us on social media.

And we're very excited to announce that we're launching a new newsletter called the ChitChat. Check out the link in the show notes or our posts on Instagram.

And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.