Episode 155 - Interview with science communicator and author Aśka

Transcript

Jen (00:00:09)

Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of Let's Talk SciComm, my most favorite place to be in the world because this is where we explore effective and exciting and engaging ways to communicate science to different people.

And my partner in crime as ever is the delightful Dr Michael Wheeler. Michael, what sort of crimes have you been up to this week? Anything I should know about?

Michael (00:00:35)

Putting too much honey on my cereal. I don't... That's about as serious as I get, Jen.

Jen (00:00:40)

Okay. Fair enough. I know you and your honey.

Michael (00:00:44)

That is a crime that my toddler does like to commit actually, when I'm not looking. So, hmm... But, you know, I get excited about honey, but I get even more excited about our podcast. And we have a very exciting guest today, Jen.

We are talking with someone whose career is a bit of a collision between two worlds that people don't usually put together, which is quantum physics and comics. So our guest is Aśka who is an award-winning cartoonist, a visual storyteller, a comics as literacy educator and a former quantum physicist.

And, you know, before all the drawing, Aśka had a first class honours degree in physics, complete with a university medal, and also spent several years working in quantum optics labs across Australia, Germany and Denmark. And I love Aśka's description of this work, "tickling atoms till they give up their secrets and glow fluorescent green".

Jen (00:01:55)

Oh, that's so good.

Michael (00:01:59)

What lovely imagery. But somewhere along the way, Aśka moved from the lab to the drawing board and has now published dozens of books and graphic novels, including Stars in Their Eyes, which was a Stonewall Award notable book. And Aśka spent several years touring Western Australia as a science presenter with SciTech, delivering shows to auditoriums, you know, and also dirt pits as well, which I think is a great description that I got from your website, Aśka.

And Aśka, you've just released a new graphic novel, young adult graphic novel called The Friendship Paradox which Jen and I have both read. And it brings all of these threads together and I guess is very much inspired from your time on the road. I really enjoyed reading it. It follows a person named Dash who tries to use their love of physics to make sense of other people. And I guess it's a book about science, but it's also a book about friendship.

So Aśka, we're delighted to be speaking with you today. Welcome to the podcast.

Aśka (00:03:16)

Thank you so much. The pleasure is all mine.

Jen (00:03:20)

I don't know. I think there's a lot of pleasure for us too. Your book is amazing. I was so delighted last weekend. I had a lot of marking to do. It's the time of year that Michael and I just have to forget everything else in the world and bury ourselves in marking. But I needed to read this book very importantly before we chatted with you. And gosh, it was a nice break from marking, to immerse myself in your world of The Friendship Paradox. So thank you very much.

Aśka (00:03:45)

Thank you.

Michael (00:03:47)

And I feel like I learned a thing or two as well about physics. So, you know, it was really great.

Aśka (00:03:53)

Oh, that warms my heart.

Michael (00:03:56)

Yeah, it's not my background, but it's so interesting.

But I would like to start at the beginning. You know, I don't think we've ever spoken from someone who's gone from quantum optics labs to writing graphic novels. Can you please take us through that journey? But I'd really like you to touch on something as part of that explanation which is in your bio, describes your quantum optics lab work as related to being a teleportation researcher. Is that right? Was that part of your quantum optics lab work? How? I'm so fascinated by that.

Aśka (00:04:38)

Yes, absolutely. That word has such a twinkle, right? People really pick up when they hear teleportation. But yes, absolutely. Teleportation is a real thing. Unfortunately, just for atoms, not for large samples of atoms. Even an ant would be too large to teleport.

However, you can teleport information, which is amazing. So that's something that I was looking at and I was looking at expressing it in different axes and different parameters. So, yeah, it was very interesting. And it certainly has a good ring to it.

Michael (00:05:13)

Yeah, it does have a good ring to it. So how did you go from, you know, physics research to writing graphic novels?

Aśka (00:05:22)

Ooh, yeah, it's a... I guess it's quite a long story. But let's keep it brief. Okay, so actually, I became, I came, I fell in love with mathematics first. So in high school, I became really struck by the idea that you could pretty much plot or draw most of mathematics. There's a way to visualize the numbers. And that was like just revolutionary to me.

And, you know, I was in school in the 90s so there was no computer. I didn't have a computer and there was no... I didn't even have a graphic calculator which I don't even know if your listeners know what that is anymore. But it was so cool. You just had to you know, plot everything by hand, do calculations and join the dots and create these things and that was so amazing. And that love led me to do science which you know, there are a few books like Carl Sagan's Cosmos or James Gleick's Chaos that really inspired me.

And then when I went to uni, I decided all of that love would fit really nicely in physics, especially particle physics at the time. I thought that was like a really hot sexy topic and I wanted to get into it. But actually, when I got to uni, I realised that no, the hottest labs were the quantum labs. And that's where I actually spent most of my time.

So it's funny, isn't it? Like really, I was led truly by some sense of popularity in the physics department world. And it was very exciting. And I loved the research I was doing. We were delving into both the theoretical and the practical. I joined all these extra groups and went abroad.

But I realised quite early on that my passion for all of this kind of complex and sometimes very theoretical knowledge was not shared by people in my life or my friends. They found it really difficult to engage with me, you know, going on about this. So what I did is I started to make little cartoons and comics. And I thought they were hilarious, but they were usually like puns to do with yeah, some of the equipment we used, or expressing some of the ideas in alternative kind of characters.

And I even put some of these cartoons into my honors thesis. And I remember being you know, warned that that was a dangerous territory because it would belittle my work. And it will make it seem yeah, less serious. But I'm very stubborn. I persevered. And later on, someone even paid me to put cartoons in their thesis. So, you know, it caught on.

But I didn't even understand the term science communication back then. But it was something that I really had an urge to do I think. And I would imagine that this is basically bringing my two passions together, which is my visual thinking and my love of science and kind of communicating with others that joy. And I guess it's always been there. I just wasn't sure where I would end up.

But I see it brought me naturally to publishing. Because yes, after I left the science world I was kind of drifting for a while, thinking I would like to do something visual. But I didn't want to be stuck doing you know, corporate reports and graphic designing. And slowly I went into the narratives. And I think maybe working in science communication helped me with that as well. But you know, we can come back to that if you'd like. I hope that was a short enough path to where I am now.

Jen (00:08:35)

Oh, I think it sounds like an amazing path. And as we said, we've both read your newest book, The Friendship Paradox, which is obviously, you know, a beautiful blossoming from your combined passions. Maybe just for anyone who hasn't had the opportunity to see it and read it, can you tell us a little bit about what it's about and in particular where the title comes from? What is The Friendship Paradox? Is that a thing?

Aśka (00:09:02)

So yeah, the book is about a character who has true... is not a great people person. So they struggle to make connections and they've just finished high school and they are entering the world of adults, hoping it will be easier than their high school years.

And they decide that the one thing that they do understand is the laws of physics and they rule the universe, so surely they can predict humans as well and they should utilise that knowledge to you know, help them with their future relationships.

And so what the book does is in every chapter it starts usually with a science demonstration, very similar to the ones you would see if you ever had science communicators or science circus come to your school or library. In some very exciting and colourful way, we're introducing a basic topic, a basic yeah, science concept. And then later in a chapter, that concept is applied in a completely different way to a real-life situation. And so I'm trying to kind of merge, yeah, the ideology of what it is with the kind of experiential. And through the book, you know, the character grows and they have their own eye-opening moments.

But actually, the title of the book is a little bit of a misnomer. I really wanted to name the book The Friendship Singularity Paradox. And this is something that the book ends with. And once you finish it, the title then naturally makes sense. It kind of ties the whole thing together. And it's like a puzzle that has been solved in a way.

However, I worked with a publisher and working with publisher means making compromises. And the marketing team at the publishing house said that no, we cannot have that many complicated words in a title for young adults and we had to take one word out.

But it's interesting that you, you know, you're pointing to what it's actually meant is that it leads to another concept in social science called the friendship paradox, which doesn't really have much to do with the book itself. So it is a little bit of a misnomer in that regard.

However, yes, I would just ask you to imagine that the singularity is in there. And I have placed it on the cover of the book. So if you look really closely, you might see that there is like an inkling of a singularity in the black hole, which is sucking the title in.

Jen (00:11:28)

You weren't tempted to go into all your local bookshops with a sharpie and just you know, add ‘Singularity’ on the front page of every one.

Aśka (00:11:36)

Well, I was thinking more of a sticker. I was being much more economical about that.

Jen (00:11:41)

Fair enough.

Aśka (00:11:42)

Yeah.

Jen (00:11:42)

So like Michael, I don't have a background in physics. It's not an area that I have, you know, knowledge or comfort with, but I certainly felt like I came out of reading your book with quite a lot of knowledge.

But it strikes me that one of the biggest themes in the book isn't actually about physics so much. It's more about this gap that exists in the world between how we perceive people and what we think people are thinking and being driven by versus what's actually going on in their inner world, which says a lot about communication and how we communicate with one another and you now, how honest we are when we hold back, you know.

So I guess I'm really interested to know, what do you hope that younger readers take away from your book in terms of how we interact with other people, how much of ourselves we, you know, we let be visible?

Aśka (00:12:35)

Yeah, that's a good question. I think that age group that the book is aimed for, that's the age of a lot of anxiety about fitting in and about the fear of being different and being in any way made fun of or picked up on mistakes. So I do, I would love some introspection about the fact that the difference is sometimes just something that hides something really beautiful.

Like people who are different think differently and that can really offer so much richness to the world. And often these people do really well later on. Like they are the people who will come up with new ways of solving problems and might even thrive in their difference. But in high school, it's so hard to see that. You know, as a young person, you do not have that context and it feels like such a burden.

So I think it was both a book for those who are different to maybe give them some hope and pride in their difference. And hopefully a moment to reflect for the other people so that maybe they can recognise the character that they have in a class that resembles Dash and treat them a little bit differently.

And I think part of... If I might just interject my visual communication into here, I really wanted to make this comic quite slow for that reason. So it has less words than you'd expect from a book for that age group. And it spends more time thinking and pondering and spends more time on awkwardness and silences. Because I think that's when you really get the emotional engagement from the reader. And that's when you can get that bit of empathy.

Jen (00:14:14)

Yeah, I thought there was a lot in there that is about accepting others and embracing diversity. But I thought just as... Well, probably more importantly, there was a lot about self-acceptance. Which, I just, is such a...

Aśka (00:14:25)

So hard.

Jen (00:14:27)

Well, obviously super hard. I mean, hopefully easier for us at the ages that we are. Even harder for the people in the age group that you were writing for. And just a really lovely kind of... The messiness of life, you know.

I just... I came out of reading it thinking Oh, I'm just glad that someone is creating stories like this and putting it out in the world. And I've, you know, I've got two teenagers. So I, you know, I know this world a little bit. And yeah, I just thought it was a really really beautifully told story. And the fact that it had science in it on top of everything else. You know, that was just a wonderful bonus really.

Michael (00:15:04)

Yeah, I think and you know, I also agree. It is a scary time of life, right? You know, entering that adult world and the fact that the comic is a slow burn. You know, you're not moving from plot point to plot point really rapidly. You do allow that time for the reader to kind of get an insight into how Dash is thinking and feeling. And yeah, I guess that makes that scary time a little bit less scary because you understand it a bit better.

And I love the visual aspect of the comic as well. And I know you spend a lot of your time now actually teaching comics as a form of literacy. So for our listeners who aren't as familiar with comics, you know, why are comics such a powerful tool for visual storytelling and communicating science?

Aśka (00:16:05)

Yeah. I've noticed very early on that we have this hierarchy in our society about how we communicate. So numbers are definitely at the top. You know, if you are someone who deals with numbers and equations, whoa, you are thought of as you know, intellectually, your intellectual prowess is right up there. Then the words come in, which is you know, literacy. If you write and read like Shakespeare, you know, wow, we're impressed.

But then at the bottom is pictures. People who draw, you know, it's considered as something that is an introduction to other languages. And I think in that underestimation of pictures, that's what the power of images is. Because they actually are extremely powerful but it's not, you know, not really acknowledged.

And I think comics do something even further than that. They combine words and pictures by making a completely new language. That language doesn't require you to have artistic skill. It is understanding through visuals. So it could be marks, symbols. There is a lot of emotional evocation by just doodling and how you lay information out on a page. All of that are pillars of what comics are. It is not about whether you can draw an amazing looking lifelike superhero. It's actually about all the things in between.

And comics teach you essentially how to storytell, in general. So it's like a melting pot of words, of beautiful images and of simple symbols and of layout and of emotion. So I think the reason they're so popular is because there's so many more doors to every reader. Like if you're not a reader who really enjoys words alone, you're going to have so many more opportunities to engage in that comic. Because you can... Maybe you're a really good visual thinker. Maybe you are attracted to images. Maybe you are really good at reading subtle emotional shifts, you know. And comics can offer a whole plethora of entry points.

And I find that literacy basically takes writing and expands it to be wider. So it includes writing of course, but there's all these other things. And now students can come in, use the skills they have, and express themselves. In a way that they didn't know people could do before.

You know, Wow, someone understood my story. Someone got it. Someone laughed. I feel so great, right? And that is the moment you want to catch them in. And I think that extends to all sorts of communication, you know. I think that's the reason I was making cartoons when I was doing quantum physics is because, yeah, the communication value, the way it was grabbing people was just something I couldn't ignore.

Jen (00:18:30)

Aśka, I have to jump in and ask you, it's just occurred to me that you know, we know the story of Dash as somebody who finds themselves in all sorts of challenging situations out there in the world, travelling, trying to communicate, trying to do science shows.

But this was actually your life, right? Like, you spent years travelling around Western Australia delivering science shows to all sorts of different audiences. Tell us, like, what are a couple of the top things you learned yourself as that science presenter? Obviously, Dash had all sorts of interpersonal challenges. But Aśka, as opposed to Dash, like what did you learn being in remote and rural and regional areas teaching about science?

Aśka (00:19:13)

Oh, so much. And yes, as you notice, the book is actually an homage to on-the-road science communication, which is not a super super common field, but there are places around Australia who are doing this. And it is so many challenges and jobs all in one. It's such joy. And I really wanted to capture it. But yes, that was a, such an exciting time of my life. I spent seven years doing this. It entailed essentially travel both in metro and across the states.

Just to remind your listeners, WA, Western Australia is not only the third of the landmass of the country, but it's also like a quarter of China. Like when you think about the size of that and us having to drive across it to see every school every three years, that was the mission originally, years ago. That is, you know, so intense. You would travel sometimes for five days to see a school with three kids or something. And it was amazing.

But what this teaches you is several things. First of all, you get to see a whole spectrum of education context for kids. You see schools in metropolitan areas from really well off to kind of you know, lower socioeconomic level schools. You get to see schools in the remote country towns and you get to see schools in communities. And you get to really feel what these kids are yearning for which is yeah, the experience and the context of... They want to know that what they're learning has meaning to their life and it will apply to what they're doing. And it was such a wonderful time to do that, to be there and to do these shows.

Another interesting thing that you learn doing this kind of work is that as an adult, you don't have many opportunities to really bond with people in that intense way. Because if you're going to go away with two other strangers for a week or two and you have to drive together, shop together, cook together and then do work together. It's, sometimes you live in very small quarters.

It, you really have no choice but to find a way to get on and you form relationships that you know, are really valuable and that was a, an amazing thing. But I think that the real joy, sorry I got totally sidetracked, I realised now. The real joy was that Scitech kind of showed me another way to communicate science.

Because I think when I was younger, I usually thought of science communication as finding some interesting visual analogies to convey. So that's something that would stick in [a] person's mind and really showed them an idea from a very different perspective.

But when I was doing the science shows, the main objective is to take all the demonstrations and the idea of the show and then to make some sort of personal narrative that will pull it all together and make it really arrive at the audience's minds and make it seem like they had a really good time. They heard a story, but now they also know all these things along the way.

And that was [a] really new way for me to think about how to communicate. And I worked with some very talented people because there was a huge turnover. There were a lot of really talented folk from teaching, education, even performance, as well as science. And you learn from the best. So I was really lucky to get all of this knowledge and be able to use it now to do this own job that I've invented, you know, which is going around and teaching the science of comics essentially.

Michael (00:22:43)

Yeah, it sounds like a wonderful experience, you know, meeting all of those people and just getting to see kind of a diversity that's out there. You know, it sounds very inspiring. I'm not surprised that it's been so inspiring for you.

And something that I found interesting in the book... I guess music is a bit of a theme. And something interesting that I noticed in your bio is that it mentions that you've got musical space synesthesia where you feel music as spaces you move through. I would love to know more about that. And does that extend into how you make comics in any way?

Aśka (00:23:24)

So yeah, I'm not... Look, I have not been diagnosed with this, so I am not sure if this thing exists, but it's the only best way that I can explain what feels to me like when I experience music. It's basically moving through spaces, yes. So it's about narrowing and opening and swaying. And I can't help even on a train to move to music if I'm really enjoying it because it takes over my body. And, I... that's the name I made for it. So please do not hold me on any, on any level for this description.

But yes, it definitely has impact on the way that I make comics. I imagine that the first draft for every page would be me just taking a biro and doing like a weird squiggle on a page, but it will be about the kind of movement or energy flow. Like I'll know that this is where I want it to be busy, this is where I want it to go, this is... And so I am not good at working with grids. Grids is usually how a lot of people start with a comic and I find that really hard. I think it's a real skill. I straightaway want to break out and stretch things and let things fall out. And it's one of the aspects of comic language. But yeah, so it's definitely something to do with that movement.

And I am working now on a work that has no words. So if you have no words, it's like you don't have a ladder or a rope, you know, to move across the story. You have to think of it more like a music. You have to think of it more as beats and rhythm and even the sound effect in this book are drawn the way we hear them, but they're not words. So you kind of have to guess what kind of sound it is by feeling it.

And you know, that's the other thing about images is that they're very sensory. We don't just look at pictures with our eyes. We actually smell them, we hear them, we taste them, we feel them. And so if you can utilise that in your storytelling or communication, you are engaging the person's emotions for sure. So they are going to respond to that information in a very different way. And that's yeah, that's something really cool. And whether it has to do with my dancing or not, I don't know, but I do enjoy it.

Michael (00:25:33)

Yeah, I mean, wow Aśka, I feel like we could continue chatting indefinitely, but we have reached that point of the podcast where we would like to round out the interview. And we like to do this with our quick questions. So they're lighthearted questions, quick questions, quick answers.

Michael (00:26:07)

Are you ready?

Aśka (00:26:09)

I hope so.

Michael (00:26:09)

It's all right.

Jen (00:26:12)

There's only five of them. You can do it.

Michael (00:26:15)

So first question. What is your favorite way to switch off after a long day?

Aśka (00:26:24)

I love cycling. So riding my bike through a bush. Watching the kangaroos jump away. It's pretty fun. And often to music. Yes, absolutely. I have to listen to music while I do it.

Michael (00:26:33)

What kind of music?

Jen (00:26:34)

And are you thinking about the physics of cycling while you do it?

Aśka (00:26:38)

I do sometimes, yeah. It's really fun. Especially if I'm going uphill.

Jen (00:26:45)

Yeah, exactly. Where's the leverage here? How can I get up the hill faster?

Okay Aśka, the next one is a slightly different question, and that is that if aliens landed on Earth tomorrow and you had the opportunity to show them one thing about your work, what would you show them?

Aśka (00:27:07)

I would probably... My work, wow, okay. Goodness, you really stumped me there. Let me think.

Jen (00:27:20)

You could give them your book. Or one of your many many books?

Aśka (00:27:27)

I think it would be something to do with language. Like I think I maybe want to make an inappropriate sound and then draw the sound and then write the sound and then show them, look, look at this amazing communication that we have. Like we have so many different ways to capture the same thing or entity in the world. You know, give us your best. What have you got? You know, that's probably what I'd do. It would be a face-off, a face-off.

Michael (00:27:51)

Yeah, I mean maybe aliens communicate through movement and they don't, you know, they don't make any sound. Wouldn't that be fascinating?

Aśka (00:27:59)

That would be interesting.

Michael (00:28:01)

They could [be] deaf. Figure that out.

All righty Aśka, what is a hill you're willing to die on in your field?

Aśka (00:28:09)

Ooh, that's... comics and visual expression of ideas is the most complex and beautiful way to communicate. Because it's so natural to humans, I think. And I will always fight for its equality, you know, in the literary world. I think that, that yeah, I'd really like to see more of that.

Jen (00:28:30)

Hear, hear. And I feel like anyone who is still reticent to believe that, they belong in the last century. That's crazy.

Aśka (00:28:40)

Thank you.

Jen (00:28:42)

So Aśka, I want you to think about a decision that you've made during your career that at the time didn't feel like a very big deal but in actual fact has turned out to have quite a big impact on you. What decision might that be?

Aśka (00:28:57)

That's very philosophical.

Jen (00:29:10)

Michael told you they were lighthearted questions and I'm like, "No, they're not really." But, you know, it can be a quick silly answer. Just something that at the time you went, Oh, I'm going to try this. And then in hindsight you're like, Oh no, actually that really, you know, that changed things.

Aśka (00:29:26)

I think definitely, you know, applying for the job as a science communicator. I actually applied to Scitech three times and I didn't get in the first two times. And there was different points in my life. And then finally, I did get into a very different department than I was originally applying to. And I think being the traveling science communicator and learning there really made a big impact on how things have developed for me.

I'm not sure if I would call it especially a lighthearted decision. But then maybe at the time, you know, it was just a job I was applying for. So it was not a make it or break it. And wherever it would lead me, I had no idea. So in that regard, I think yeah, that probably would be the answer is getting to work in the golden era of the traveling SciComm. Because I don't think that department exists anymore. So I was really lucky to be on that road there.

Michael (00:30:15)

Ahh, great.

Jen (00:30:16)

Good on you for being brave and going back multiple times. Because you know, rejection's hard in anything, right? So to be rejected twice and to still say, "No, no, trust me, I've got something to offer you." I think that's fantastic.

Aśka (00:30:29)

Absolutely. You have to be tenacious in this world, I think. And that's definitely something I would like us to do more of.

Michael (00:30:36)

Yes, definitely. All righty. So final question I would like to ask, condensing down all of your wonderful experience about communicating science, what would be your very top tip for how to communicate science effectively?

Aśka (00:30:57)

Well, I think for me visually it feels like this. You need to first understand the concept really well. I know this sounds obvious but I have seen people try to science communicate something that they didn't quite understand and it shows. So understanding it really well.

And then in my mind it's like walking around it all the way, seeing it from all the different directions, kind of almost like holding something and rolling it in your hands. Because what's going to be catching and what's going to be new and what's going to be a new way into the concept will be something, uhh yeah, either using a different analogy or using a completely different language, right? Whether it's pictures or song to explain this. Or just, yeah, just basically surprising the person rather than giving them the, just a modification of what they've already heard before and you know, and reshuffling it.

So yeah, to me it feels like just take the concept, roll it around, find a new angle, and that's the best way to to explain it. But that's not always easy. It takes practice.

Michael (00:31:49)

Yeah, great. Yeah, yeah.

Jen (00:31:51)

I think it takes lots of practice, but I think it's a lovely way to think about it. I haven't been surprised at all today Aśka. I knew on the basis of having enjoyed your amazing most recent book that we were going to have a fantastic conversation today, and we have.

So thank you for the fabulous work you do exploring physics and you know, really science in all of its glory and beauty in creative ways. I just think your work is absolutely fantastic.

And, yeah, if there's any of Dash in you, gosh, you're a great communicator who doesn't seem to struggle at all with you know, connecting with people. So it's just been such a lovely conversation. Thank you for making the time to join us today.

Aśka (00:32:33)

Thank you. It's been really lovely. And I really appreciate that you guys read the book and enjoyed it. That really makes my heart beat with joy.

Michael (00:32:42)

Thanks, Aśka. Yeah. It's been a pleasure.

Michael (00:33:03)

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, we'd love you to tell a friend about the podcast or leave us a review. And you can reach out to us on social media.

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And also a big thank you to our production team, Steven Tang and Madeleine Kelly.